Dear community ,

I got a coin where I have doubts on authenticity. Particularly, I don't like the edge. It should be the edge 0, plain edge, but instead of smooth surface, the edge has many grooves which go all the way around the coin.



Is this the sign of casting? I have another coin of this type, plain edge is normal, as it should be.

Thanks!

The edge could have been filed away -- many rare varieties of Nicholas II coins have a plain edge. If it is of that period, then the weight might give it away since normal weight is fairly consistent by that time.

Hi Bob

No, this is a coin of Peter I

I once bought a 1712 ruble that turned out to be a cast fake. It was of very good quality. The edge had similar marks.

Peter I? Sorry but I'm doubting it too.

Do you happen to have the pictures of the obverse and reverse? Thanks

Surely I have

This is the quarter rouble 1705 we already discussed here:

http://www.coinpeople.com/index.php?showtopic=12105

where we had some fight with people making statements without explaining, so I did not want to provoke the people again

Yes, this is the coin from the Gorny and Mosch auction, 153/6001. I found it to be fake and I'm returning it to the auctioneers. Only thorough analysis revealed this coin to be a fake.

First I wanted to post the topic under name "Quarter Rouble 1705 - Fake or genuine? Guidelines for numismatists" or "...mystery unveiled" , with large comparative pictures of the fake and genuine coins and features you can use to spot a fake, but I did not want to provoke the community.

Greetings

Wait a second - you mean that edge is for the 1705 polupoltinnik?!

But for something that has aged 300 years+, I REALLY do expect the edge to be somewhat WORN, not groovy like the image suggests!

Yes, it's for the 1705 polupoltinnik from the G&M sale which several people suggested to be a fake. I have another, definitely authentic piece which is without a dot between "polupoL" and "btinnik" and have a normal edge, just plain, somewhat worn, but without any grooves. Unfortunately, I have already sold it , now the piece from the G&M will travel back to G&M and I will try on the next sale to get something good for my collection

One suggestion of the origin might be in the way certain large modern medals are made. A three-inch (76 mm) medal, for example, is struck several times but not in a collar. The struck piece is placed in a lathe and the excess metal on the edge trimmed to the proper size. The illustration shown by kisenish has marks similar to those made by a lathe (although much cruder) and perhaps, if this piece is bad, was made that way.

RWJ

Yes, but I think it was made this way (by a lathe) not in the 18th century How was the procedure for the polupoltinniks 1705?

I think this coin is a modern counterfeit, especially if everything matches the exemplar published as a fake in the JRNS 77, p.46. Even the displacement of dies matches completely - dot in dot. They are also identically bent.
This coin is either from the fake dies made from an original coin (with such die displacement, that's why all "clones" are completely the same) or a cast fake - in this case you also get fully identical "clones". Am I right?

This particular coin exhibits exactly the features suggested previously by Rarenum for identification of fakes, namely:
1. Dots on circle close to the edge of fake coin look like wide line or wide dots.
2. Edge (#0) looks like oval because harshly cleaned.

It's in preparation for travel back to G&M along with my expertise.

Did you "ring" it? That would show you whether it was a cast copy or not...

I'll do it today evening

kisenish,

Were you able to contact Mr. Gorny to ask for return of the coin and refund? I am wondering what you were told? Also I am very interested to find who was consignor of this coin (but most likely will never find out). I suggest you look on another GM auction #143 lot 5983A. What do you think?

Once you get a refund please let the community know. This may be beneficial for many people who occasionally buys from GM.

Best,
WCO

O yes, I called them today, they were more than happy Actually, it is not necessary to contact Mr. Gorny personally, I called the office and an employee gave me instructions how to send the coin back.
Most importantly, you should explain the reasons for returning, but for this coin it is not a problem, especially if it is published. Surely, I will go all the way through analysis of details and comparative pictures, it's not a problem for me, as I'm a scientist - it's like writing a paper

Fully identical "clones" / alledgedly fakes were sold by G&M at least twice - these are 123/4001 and 143/5983A. Actually, it is a sad situation since you don't know what you get even from a reputable source - you should be a specialist by yourself

No, even 3 times - also 127/5336.

These coins appeared at the G&M auctions first in 2003, thus, it's in accordance with the information from Rarenum that these fakes were spot from 2001 on.

They (GM) sold similar fakes several times already. I did not dig that much deep in time as you did but that 143/5983A was definitely a fake. Also seems for me that these were all "consigned" by a single "source".


WCO

Looks like file marks to me. Surely lathe markings wouldn't have as severe an angle as these marks have, would they?

As WCO asked, I would like to tell the community the happy-end of this story. Just now I finally got the refund for this fake Only the costs of shipping the coin back to GM were non-refundable (4 Euro), but I think this is a good price for the knowledge I gained by performing an extensive research on these coins. As WCO states in his signature - "Knowledge is power"

Thank you, kisenish for the follow up. I am glad there was no problem.


WCO

Well...there is a problem ! Huge problem ! I'm pretty sure that those prominent dealers know what they sell. I can not imagine that Mr. Gorny or Baron (most recent case) had no idea that they are selling fakes.
Don't you think this is a huge problem ?!

A Russian dealer.

What is it about the Baron coin that leads you to believe that it is also a fake?

Mr. Z.

Welcome to the forum.

There is no proof that Mr. Gorny has ever seen that coin. Even if he used to see it, then there is no proof that he inspected it himself. And even he inspected it himself, there is no proof that he became aware about it being a fake. For a dealer of his size benefits of selling this coin (if it sells) are minor, and loss of reputation and business overall may be huge once found out that their company was deliberately selling fakes. So unlike you, I would not be accusing them of a "major crime", i.e. deliberate sales of fakes. While there certainly is a "smaller crime" - luck of thorough expertise of coinage put for auction.


WCO

I think they are not big specialists on this field, and, whether they guarantee the authenticity or not, you are always supposed to look by yourself. Surely, it would be good to be able to rely on them, but unfortunately it's not the case. They even don't always write about field polishing / mount marks. That's why I try to see all the coins I want to bid on in person. Some coins looking nice in catalogs are in real very ugly tooled / polished pieces. That's IMHO at least non-professonal.

Concerning other auctions, it's even worse. Sometimes I see there very obvious fakes (e.g. Siberian coinage of 1764 and other "rarities") you can buy on eBay for 1-2 Euro. It means, they have no idea how coins should look like. In this case, IMHO, they should not be allowed to make auctions, if they don't know what they sell.

Do you think he was aware of this coin being a fake and tried to rip the people off? My God, so many a..holes hunting for your money

Any dealer, no matter how expert, can unknowingly sell a fake. The fact that a dealer might have done so tells me nothing about that dealer's integrity (although it might reveal something about the dealer's expertise in that particular issue).

What is far more significant is whether the dealer routinely sells fakes and what the dealer does when the authenticity of a coin he/she has sold is called into question.

To the best of my knowledge, no-one has accused Gorny of routinely peddling fakes.

In this case, he did the honorable thing by refunding the purchase price once he was alerted to the problem (although, in my opinion, reimbursing the buyer for return shipping costs would have been a minor expense and an elegant thing to do).

I might add that the forgery in this case is a dangerously deceptive counterfeit which is not easily detected unless one is familiar with its particular diagnostics.

Agreed, Gorny & Co. did the honorable thing by promptly refunding the money. Oldman accusationally tried to tell that Gorny and Baron were aware of selling fakes, but I think this was not the case.

WCO

2kisenish
Mr.Gorny has a good reputation. I’m happy it works out for you.

I don't doubt in his reputation, they (Gorny & Mosch) are reliable and respected auctioneers, mistakes, as in this case, can happen. I've also heard from others, if the coin reveals to be a fake, they will refund the money. So, I'm grateful to these guys It's not possible to know everything.

I also disagree that they can do it by purpose. Reputation is much more important, as you can't buy it. They will see me of course on the coming auctions, since I know - if s*** happens, they'll admit

Yes. I think, this one and other 6 or more coins if you mean last Gorny auction.

I can not disagree more with Mr/Ms WCO.
These auction houses are responsible for what they are selling. Mr Gorny proclaimed himself a specialist in Russian coinage, a professional. A PROFESSIONAL ! Do I have to add anything here ? I do not think so ! I do not accuse him of a "major crime". I (as many others ) have just lost trust in him and his auctions. That means that Mr Gorny has lost another client.

Sincerely yours, Oldman (BTW, WCO - Mr Z is not my name )

For example, one of the 1797 roubles ("heavy" ) was a fake and was removed from the auction at the last minute. Is it acceptable ? No. Can it happen again in future ? Sure, why not - there is no time for proper expertise, there is no NEED for proper expertise . As we all saw - fakes sell nicely !

I hope I have responded to this polite email, Mr / Ms WCO.
Actually, yes, I am accusing them for the lack of professionalism in dealing with public interest.

Internet and mail-bidders do not have possibility to inspect the coins and must rely on the dealer's reputation. Can you in these cases ? Nope.

As one of the smart people said:
"One can work on the reputaion for years and lose it in a minute"

Oldman,

I still think everything is OK with reputation of Gorny and Co. They returned money once learned that sold a fake coin. Did it fast and prompt. Can you give ma a name of any coin auction company that never sold a fake?

WCO

... or of a collector who never bought one?

Dear WCO,

Mr J. Elmen, for example. Well, I can not recall Stacks' fakes for a public sale either....."Alexander" auction in Moscow....

Don't get me wrong - I respect Mr Gorny deeply and I realize that people make mistakes. However, those mistakes must be rare. In this case , they have become a pattern and are VERY costly....

Best Holiday season wishes. Trully yours, Oldman

Yes, but what is it about the Baron 1705 polupoltinnik that you observed that supports your contention that it is a fake?

It looks okay to me, but I'm not an expert in counterfeit detection, so I'd like to know what it is that you see that I don't. Thanks!

These guys had only 5 (five!) auctions with totally 495 coins, so maybe you mention them way too early. BTW, I heard opinions that the coin pictured on their first catalog cover was a high quality fake (I do not have any opinion, did not see the coin, only in the catalog).


These words could not be said better: "These auction houses are responsible for what they are selling. Mr Gorny proclaimed himself a specialist in Russian coinage, a professional. A PROFESSIONAL ! Do I have to add anything here ? I do not think so ! I do not accuse him of a "major crime". I (as many others ) have just lost trust in him and his auctions."

As I performed an extensive research on these coins - From the pictures, this coin looks genuine. It has many small features present on the original dies and published in all the catalogs. I will not disclose them, as I fear, counterfeiters can fix them. If somebody wants to get a copy of my expertise to Mr. Gorny (in German, but with comparative pictures ), please write to alexei21@hotmail.com

However, a final verdict you can give only if you have the coin in your hands.

Sorry, but I do not think I've mentioned this coin as a fake , have I ? I HAVE mentioned one of a "heavy" roubles 1797 - please read above.
Oldman

Well, you are right - it is kind of early...will see...

Thanks. I'm just fed up with all those "innocent, money-returning" dealers. I'm sure they know what they are doing...in most cases....

You are correct. Your original comment was made in the context of a discussion of Kisenish's 1705 polupoltinnik which proved to be false. I was the one who made the inference from your initial post that you were saying the Baron 1705 polupoltinnik is also false.

With respect to the dealers you named, all are knowledgeable and respected people whose integrity is not in question. However, being human, they do occasionally make mistakes. A more accurate statement might be that they have never offered for sale a fake that you know of. When you look at a list of prices realized for an auction and a lot is not listed, it usually means that there was no bid or that the lot failed to make reserve. However, sometimes it means that the lot was withdrawn because one or more specialized collectors knowledgeable in the series identified the coin as false and the dealer has quietly withdrawn the lot from sale.

No-one, no matter how expert, knows everything. Even expert authenticators make mistakes and false coins have been known to occasionally be slabbed as genuine while genuine coins are sometimes rejected as false.

The fact that a dealer might have offered a false coin for sale does not reflect on the honesty of the dealer. The real question is, what does the dealer do when he/she learns a coin is false? The proper thing to do is withdraw it from sale or, if already purchased, to refund the buyer's money (and an apology wouldn't hurt). In my estimation, both Gorny and Baron did the proper thing.

I understand that you believe that both of these dealers knowingly offer fakes for sale. I can't prove that you are wrong, but I have grave doubt that you are right. If you can establish a clear and consistent pattern of selling fakes, then I am prepared to revise my view. Showing that one coin (out of many thousands offered for sale over the years) is false does not, in my opinion, meet that standard.

Dear Mr grivna1726 !

Thanks for your posting. I have to admit that I agree with almost 100%.
The only thing that I'd be willing to argue is the following phrase: "No-one, no matter how expert, knows everything. " It is my strong opinion that the auction houses MUST take every possible measure to positively identify goods (not only coins) they offer to public. With the profit margin they receive I am sure it would be just a small $$$ fraction to spend for knowledgeable experts, dealers, etc. Otherwise, it looks and feels like "Catch me if you can".
Very best wishes , Oldman

I recently bought a coin from Spink that turned out to be a fake. The refund was instantaneous upon them receiving the coin. Did they place this coin in their sale knowingly? I think (hope ) not.
These action houses are in for a long run, so why would they try to ruin their reputation on purpose? It does not make sense. I understand what Oldman is saying and the same thoughts are going through my mind all the time. On the other hand, most of these auction houses were interested/involved in true numismatics once upon a time, but now they are just businessman. Do you think Mr. Gorny inspects each coin personally? Their expertise was fine when Russian coins were selling in hundreds of dollars. So they make an occasional mistakes and not much harm is done. Now, that these coin sell for tenth of thousands, that's a different story. They are just not good enough as experts in Russian coinage. And should they be? Do not forget, they sell everything unders the sun, not just what we are interested in.
So if one wants to buy an expensive rare coin, they better be deserving of that coin not with just having the money, but by having the knowledge, or using some extra money to get an independent opinion. For the rest of us, who do not buy very expensive coins, getting burned along the way is the only way to getting THERE. And when you get THERE, it is a quick look, followed by a quick touch and you know the TRUTH . IMHO.

Oldman,



All dealers (if you are that naive that willing to discass this) do "mistakes" that are quite costly for their customers. This is simply because no one knows everything, there is no Perfect Authenticator and Perfect Grader and Perfect Auctioneer and Perfect Cataloguer in the world and "people's factor" is always present. You think that "costly mistakes" made by dealers are only when they sell a fake? Those cases are rare. I can tell you a thing or two about EVERY dealer you mentioned (except Alexander auction I am not familiar with), but do not want this to go on. I do respect Mr. Elmen, Stacks and many other good and nice dealers and auction houses, I do respect Mr. Gorny too, I think they all are good to deal with. If you think otherwise then it is up to you, chose who you like and who you dislike, but I think it is not appropriate to provide bad and misleading information about major dealers here on the forum.

And FYI: "magor crimes" and major loss of money by auction participants are not because buying a fake coin. Try shill bidding, fake bidding on mail-bid sales, making up better pictures of coins to look up nice in catalogues and on the internet, misleading descriptions of coins to make them look scarcer and nicer than they really are, selling a "no grade" cleaned, artificially toned, tooled trash. This is 100 times bigger than fakes problem, and most people even do not understand this.


Best regards,
WCO

I pretty much agree with WCO and grivna's points.

While auction houses should find the experts to certify such coins, one should not immediately condemn them for not getting them right. On the other hand, do tell me, have ANY dealers never made any mistakes? If so, please do recommand me.

Even recently discovery of counterfeits are still found. This is from the US coinage example of the Morgan dollars http://coincollector.org/archives/002476.html (I know it's slightly off topic) but these do take major studies to occur. Even after so many years, counterfeits can only be found some odd 100 years later. I wouldn't be too suprised if Russian coins were counterfeited to such high standards and years later such coins are found to be counterfeit.

Who knows? You might think you have a genuine coin and next year someone might tell you it's a counterfeit and it just might be.

The reason is simple - the more demand we want for genuine coins, the more we are unintentionally artifically demanding the production of ultra high counterfeit coins.

My dear Mr / Ms WCO,

I have not provided any misleading information. I have just expressed my personal opinion based on proven facts on a public forum. I strongly believe this my right and obligation. BTW, check any dictionary for the meaning of word "forum". You may be surprised to find out that I'm absolutely correct here !



I agree on this part ! I'd not , however, measure what "crime" is bigger

Thanks, this was exactly my point (see above)

I like that words too

In fact even if they (auction house experts) do not study too much - they at least must discard any coin which has even a slightest smallest chance to be a fake, especially if that is rare or expensive piece (these 'rare' and 'expesive' are easy to spot, right?) - extra caution must be taken when such pieces are consigned.