Does anyone have more information on these 2?





They weigh over 600 grams/piece and measure 19x15 centimeters.

I know some of these originate from Katanga/Congo. Is it possible to date these?
I got them as a gift from a friend, who knows I don't collect it, so I will be selling/swapping it eventually, but wish to know everything about them first. They look the same, except for the colour. One is in yellowish copper, where the other one is more red. Is that due to the copper, or the toning?

What value do these have?

Thanks in advance

Jos

This information is from Dr. Lane Brunner's presentation on Money from the ANA Coins in the Classroom Seminar.

Katanga Cross
 Africa - Katanga Tribe
ca. 1100-1920 A.D.
 Copper cross made in
sand molds
 Used by various tribes
with differing values
 One cross traded for:
 10 kg flour
 6 chickens
 4 kg rubber
 10 crosses for 1 gun
 Bride price - 14 crosses,
female goat, gun, female
slave

I had found this information too in the meantime, but it still doesn't say a lot.
How do you date them? (if it is possible at all)
Are there collectors for these? How often are these offered?
Is the weight normal? Or very high?

Still a lot of questions, but that what's knowledge gathering is all about

Regards

Jos

I am going to create a webpage on these at some point in the near future, I have one shown here:



There really is no way to precisely date these, they varied in shapes and sizes over time, some are more cross shaped, some more like an X and some of the smaller ones even resemble H's. As with many forms of primitive money they are not very well researched or documented - and may never be.

Unfortunately someone cleaned your examples rather harshly.

Yes, mine is cleaned quite a bit. But if you get it as a present, you can't be all to difficult about it.

These exist probably in forgeries too? How would you see the difference?

The design on my too crosses are the same. Would they be better kept together, or would you seperate them?
Only the colour differs a bit.

Regards,

Jos

I guess forgeries could be made, and it would be difficult to distinguish. But there is not a lot of collector demand for these, despite their size, age and historical significance. I purchased mine for about 20 Euros last year on eBay.

That sounds quite cheap, but if there's no demand, that's the result, especially in the auctions.

I will wait for some others to give their opinions before I part with them.

Thanks for all the information

Regards

Jos

Most of the time when I see these for sale on the internet, via eBay or dealers such as Joel Anderson whom deal in odd and curious monies, they go for between $100-125 each. I think mine was a lucky nobody noticed auction, I wanted one for awhile and just happened upon one that got overlooked on eBay.

Odd and curious money, like many other obsecure items in numismatics often have a large difference between "wholesale" and "retail values"

They look very interesting, none the less. Strange that there isn't more interest in these. You would think that more people would want to know the true reason behind these. If they are used for hundreds of years, they should be collected by thousands of people. All people that collect from the Middle ages up untill modern times could have a need to own one of these.

Only the one presentation is what I've found up untill now.

Would they do well on eBay? Or is there a better place to offer them?
Also the fact that they are of the same design, makes me wonder if I should keep them together or offer them seperately? The purchase of two of these could be too expensive for most collectors.

What would you guys do? Is anyone interested here? Should I put it up for auction here on CP?

Regards

Jos

I would be interested in them. I could put them up on the roof for five years and let them return back to their natural colour, like their brethen lovingly cared for in my home. Price would have to factor in the damage from the cleaning though.

I retoned some Columbian half dollars from 1892 by putting them up on top of a gate at the ranch, they sat there for literally years until they darkened to a natural colour. They were all harshly cleaned and I paid melt for them.

I don't keep coins at home, they are in the bank. The Katanga Cross is all that is home, cannot fit it in the bank, even the Swedish Plates stay in the bank. I have thought of displaying it somehow, maybe with some ethnic African artworks that I would collect to display with it.

Nice items indeed. Well I will wait for some more Cp-peeps to respond before I decide what I do with them.


Regards

Jos

For the same reason that you collect error coins from Belgium, but not other countries - people like to collect numismatic items from their own countries, neighbouring countries, and countries whom they have ancestoral or other relations with. And to have a strong collector base, the nations involved must have people with a good amount of extra money available to purchase them.

Thus, among the most expensive coins in the world are those from economically strong countries where people have sufficient after-tax money that they can use to spend on non-essential items.
Others, no matter how scarce, without demand, cannot have much value. (as its scarcity should demand)

Additionally, people like collecting recent coins. It is another reason why medevial and ancient coins are almost always valued less than modern pieces of comparible, or lesser rarity.

Does anyone have more information on these?

Is anyone interested in them, at all?

(except for Scottishmoney ofcourse)

Regards

Jos

I think they are interesting. Don't know where I'd stash them though...

I don't know much about them, but since reading this thread I to find them interesting.

I'm willing to sell these, so if anyone is interested. I will ship them for free for the CP's.

Just let me know in a PM

Regards

Jos


(PS: the moderator can move this thread, if needed)

Anyone else interested?
Could be a great Christmas present

Regards

Jos

Well, I've listed these, so if anyone is interested, feel free to come and have a look

Click here

Regards and good luck,

Jos