Hi,

I am looking for information about how rare 1757 Ivanov portrait rouble is. I think one piece in VF was sold at Goldbergs couple of years ago, one at #109 G&M, one at Adolph Hess in 1932. Any ideas about how really rare this piece is - 10 known coins, 100 or else?

Any opinion is welcome.

In keeping a data base, from the internet and published auction catalogues, of silver roubles for 1757–1796 I have photographs of more than 2800 specimens, including just 3 different 1757 Ivanov roubles. To show comparitive rarity, there are 36 Dassier roubles in the data base and 17 of the 1757 Scott roubles.

RWJ

I had a few opportunities at this coin and I missed them all.
At Superior I was trying real hard, but no cigar.
This coin is much rarer than Dassier rouble. To the list of auctions I can add Fuchs sale and Credit de la Bourse sale. But of course, these were the same coins (if I remember correctly) as Superior and Gorny.
Actually, I think even the transitional type of 1757 (Scott portrait, Dassier eagle) is more scarce than Dassier.
Back to the original question - the coin is VERY RARE. A handful at best. IMHO

Thank you very much!

Do you know by a chance which coin is pictured in Ran Zander book (actually there are 2 coins photographed)?

Bob,

Can you tell from your database what Scott types were those 17 coins?
I am looking for statistic on transitional type - Scott portrait and Dassier eagle.

It is most likely Fuchs specimen. I will double check tonight.
Is one being offered?

I assume you are referring to page 62 of the Zander book. Both illustrated Ivanov roubles are of 1758. The countermarked piece is from the Giessener Münzhandlung (Dieter Gorny) sale 103 while the other is from the Goodman sale (Superior).

RWJ

For 1757 I have the following for the Scott roubles:

Old Eagle – 9
New (Dassier) Eagle – 8

RWJ

I have the following listed for illustrated 1757 Ivanov roubles:

1. Fuchs, Superior (February 2005), and Gelos (May 28, 2005). Same coin.

2. Giessener Münzhandlung (Dieter Gorny) sale 109 of April 2001.

3. Hess 210 (April 1932).

RWJ

Credit De La Bourse, 23 May 1996, Paris is Dieter Gorny sal 109 piece.

There was also one sold in November 2002 in Numismatica Genevensis (Alain Baron) sale II

So, that makes 4 confirmed coins so far? Assuming that we know of only one tenth of the 1757 Ivanov rubles in private hands (which might be a wildly inflated estimation of surviving population), that's still a rare coin by virtually anyone's standard.

Just out of interest has anyone got a picture of the Ivanov coin?

2 Mr. Julian: could you look into your database and see if any of the 2 coins (Fuchs>Superior and Credit de la Burse>G&M)has small but remarkabe rim nick on av. just between letters P and B in the mint letters SPB below the portrait?

The Giessener Münzhandlung Sale 109 specimen has just such a nick. I have not seen the Credit de la Bourse sale.

RWJ