1859 Commemorative Ruble. Please help with authenticity, possible grade and may be fair price of this particular coin. Any opinions are greatly appreciated. I would be especially grateful to hear opinions of Russian coinage experts as RW Julian and Steve Moulding. Thank you in advance for any help.

For whatever it's worth (maybe not much), I see nothing which causes me to question the authenticity of this coin. It looks EF at the very least, maybe even unc.

Is the coin being offered by a known reputable source?

Value? I'll guess $600, but what I think is fair is often very different from what other bidders think, especially in today's market.

Thank you soo much for your opinion!

Looks alright to me too. That's a great example there WCO. I should have bought an example when I could have had the chance

I have but four illustrations of this coin that have been downloaded (and my own specimen is in the bank and not available until Monday) but there are some problems with this coin. The lettering is spaced differently; in particular the obverse legend is closer to the border on the photographs that I have. The A of CAMOD... is closer to the head on your specimen when compared to the photos I have, for example. The period (dot) at the end of the legend is directly under the second letter I of LIALIN on the truncation in the photographs but not on this piece; it is slightly to the right of center. (All 4 photos appear to be from the same dies.)

It is known that low and high-relief specimens exist for this coinage but I do not have photos showing the difference. It may be that the 4 photos I have are all of the same variety and you have the other one. The St. Petersburg Mint began using full hubs (including the lettering) in 1844-1845 so it is hard to believe that the 1859 commemorative ruble did not use hubs.

Perhaps there is a reader/collector who has a specimen from these dies which was obtained prior to 1970?

RWJ

Thank you soo much for your time and answer. I am not sure I understand your verdict though. Is this piece not authentic or authentic or it is not possible to tell? From catalogs I know there were several varieties of this coin: Mint State high and low relief, MS Prooflikes high and low relief, Proofs and even obverses of medals used to make coins. I saw some coin on Triton IX auction about a year ago with somewhat different medallic obverse, but not sure if will be able to find it now. I mean a lot was done back then. So what do you suggest? Also what is wrong with usage of hubs on this particular coin?

The following Conros specimen illustrates the points made above:

http://auction.conros.ru/auction.cgi?lotID=109037

RWJ

Actually I do not have a verdict but the letters do appear to be exactly the same as those on known genuine pieces. It seems unlikely that a counterfeiter would go to that kind of trouble.

Generally speaking, however, the question of Proof or Prooflike does not enter in because this is a question of polishing the dies and preparation of planchets. Because the dies do not match what I have on hand in photographs I think it necessary to look further to see if a die match can be located on an unquestionably genuine piece.

Conros has had more than 200 auctions which can be easily accessed and perhaps it would be fruitful to examine the 1859s that appear there and are well photographed.

RWJ

Thank you so much RWJ! Very professional!

Before going into more research I may be wait, if someone else provides their opinion or may be similar coin made with exactly the same die will surface up.

This specimen shows the same obverse die that RWJ refers to (note the position of the period at the end of the legend). Same die as Conros/RWJ pieces, different die from yours.
Checking to see what other images I have....

Steve

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Thank you so much, Steve. Well, I can't find for now any other looking coins than those 4 that already had RWJ. I checked already another several images. And still in catalogs listed other varieties, I just can't find any of them. I do not even know are all those coins high relief or low relief variety?

You're welcome. You probably have this but I'll include it as a reference benchmark image

From my Grand Duke Georgii Michailovich corpus...

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Bingo! Lettering looks quite close and definitely spaced differently too, but dot at the end of legend looks huge? May be it is just to me, starting to imagine things?

Anyway I finally found that completely different 1859 Ruble.

http://www.cngcoins.com/Coin.aspx?CoinID=7...mp;IsEnlarged=1

Unfortunately, the picture is too small, unable to see details well. There was another also different Ruble on that sales but went unsold (lot 2179) and they deleted the picture.

The issue becomes more and more complicated to me, more questions than answers.

I am not a great expert on Commemorative Coins, or anything for that matter... but this is what I see:

1. The coin purports to be Bit (2) 566 (Die in Relief). The best sign of that is the sideburn and the dot at the end of the reverse legend. However, I see elements of both the high relief variation and the low relief variation combined into one coin. I cannot tell from a photo whether it is a new variety or a fake.

2. Price -- MS -- $750+
Proof -- $1400+

(IMXO)

Thank you so much for valuable addition! And what are distinguishable things that allow to say high relief, low relief or medallic obverse? Is there anything in Bitkin 2 about it? Also what "sideburn" you are referring to and at the end of which word should I look for a dot?

I have never had a keen eye for authentication of coins. With that on the table, I like it. The detail in the photo is nice. I would think it is in the AU-55 range, if not a MS-60.

Here is my 1859 in an ANACS holder. I sent it for authentication purposes, expecting a possible net grade for cleaning, but they apparently did not see it as distracting. They gave it a EF-40.

This is the first example in this thread with the 'Dot' (Obverse legend-end) as on WCO's coin.
All others so far (CNG,Conros,Moneti, & Grand Duke Michailovich) have the dot placement as noted by RWJ.

Steve

Dear Steve, does this just posted coin in ANACS holder looks for you the same as my coin? I am really lost now among that many details and variations.

Yes. In my previous post I said that the ANACS coin does look like yours, and so is the first example we have seen in this thread which matches (so far I only checked the 'dot'). All other examples shown so far match RWJ's description.

I think so far we only have two variations.
(1) Yours(+ANACS)
(2) Others (RWJ/Conros/Moneti/GD/CNG)

Steve

There is only one sideburn -- it is on the emperor's face :-) The lower portion of it is way more pronounced on the high relief variant. Also, the dot at the end of the reverse legend is smaller and is placed farther along the diameter of the coin on high relief variation. Thus, so far your coin fits the description... But, the ear, however, is much more similar to the low relief variation. The obverse (where the horse is :-)) should really be identical for both coins (at least according to Bitkin). As to medal -- its diameter is 37.2 as opposit to 35.5 for rouble. I do not think a rouble could be struck with medalic obverse.

Additionally, medallic obverse has the same ear as the high relief variation. Yours does not.

And what about the coin I found on Triton sale? They claim it is something well different (obverse). The link is above in this thread.

I also found this, looks different too:

http://i01.expertcollector.com/uploads/0003000969_3.jpg

http://i01.expertcollector.com/uploads/0003000969_4.jpg

Thanks a lot, BKB. Well, I definetely found a Ruble with medallic type obverse at Triton sale so they exist I guess. But overall, do you believe the coin is authentic, not authentic or not possible to say and more data is needed, or may be something like "most likely authentic than not" or on the contrary? I mean, at the end I want authentic piece, but what variety is not that important. Thank you in advance.

When I need to determine the authenticity of a Commemorative coin I take the coin itself and at least three confirmed originals of the same coin. I then compare those under the microscope. I normally focus on small details, especially hair. It is impossible to tell whether this coin is original by comparing photographs. You need to see it in 3D. These commemoratives today are widely counterfeited. The quality of work is exceptional which is due to increased prices.

7 years ago I was offered 5 commemorative coins: AIII monument, 2 specimens of this coin (Horse), Borodino ruble, and Dvorik. All 5 turned out to be fake. It took me 3 days under the microscope to figure it out!!! The easiest to spot was Borodino (sword placement). The others had minor differences in haircut

BKB, would you by any chance know where I can get those excellent high quality counterfeit coins at a cheap price?

Yes, it may sound mad but I personally would like to expose to the world of the high quality counterfeits of these coins. I personally have the 1839 Borodin and 1914 Gangut ruble and would like to expose the world of the existance of such high quality counterfeits.

You are saying it right, BKB. I wish I could have all varieties of this coin and indeed known that authentic, and preferably 10 pieces for each variety or better a 100.

Then I could sit and compare. But unfortunately, only a few museums can do such a thing and even they (like Hermitage or Russian State Historical museum) have some varieties missing even in their collections.

I understand that most Russian coins that worth even a few $$ and more to thousands are widely counterfeited, that's why I asked opinion of this board on the first place, knowing that many advanced collectors and experts are here (great people as well) and I get the right answers for my questions.

I do not think experts at NGC or PCGS have all world coins to look at when they do a counterfeit detection. They use other methods I guess than just simple comparison.

About group of coins-counterfeits you had. I agree completely with gxseries, this would be very interesting to expose these to the world as well as any other high quality counterfeits of any world coins. Crude fakes are immediately recognizable, but quality fakes should be learned about.

I don't know if the coin is real or not. If it is a fake, then it is a dangerous fake. I certainly wouldn't have suspected it was bad if it were offered to me

When I mentioned Commemorative coins, I did so on purpose. I have a friend with a very large and old collection. All coins have auction records going back decades. With commemoratives, he has, or until recently had, at least 3 specimens of each coin (Except Gangut and Family rouble). For some, like a Marriage rouble, he has 7-8 different die variations. Thus, I guess I am lucky to be able to compare the Commemoratives as if I was working in a museum.

To determine whether the coin is real, you do not necessarily need to compare it to an identical variation. The process of making dies allowed only minor variations since 1840's in Russia.

As to NGC and other grading companies -- I really have no idea what they base their decision on. The weight, the diameter, the thickness and quality of dies. Some experts specialize on the edge. One thing is certain -- die comparison is the best way, and these grading companies do not have the resources for a proper comparison. When they are puzzled, they send the coin to an outside "expert" who is supposed to be independent. However, as far as I know, most of these experts are dealers. And a dealer has incentive to pronounce an original coin a fake if it did not come from his stock. One of my coins was so pronounced a fake one year ago by such "independent" examiner. The coin is undeniably original. Dealers at NY show were laughing at the NGC envelope stating that the coin is fake. I received a couple of offers to purchase it.
On the other hand, I know of a number of fakes graded as real by NGC not so long ago.

The problem is, that they are sold as originals. Thus, it is hard to find them cheap. Even if you buy it at an auction and later find out that it is a fake, you will still be hesitant to sell it for much less than you paid for it.

Some, like Borodino, were discovered quickly. Others, like Gangut, are badly made. However, there are some that are sold evn today at auctions as originals. Some are even graded by NGC and other grading services.

After some more inspection I found some dots or "something" on the coin. The first bigger dot is above letter "O" in word "POVEL." on the monument side and the other smaller one above and between letters "K" and "O" in word "NIKOLAI" on portrait side. Are these natural and if they are what may be explanation of this?

Is it possible these are because of rusty dies or what may be other cause they found on the coin?

I seriously doubt that rusty dies could be used to strike a commemorative coin. These were struck with greater care and control.

Thank you, BKB. But are these 1859 Rubles struck during a single year or for several years? Also, what is the most likely explanation of these dots. I thought that dies become somewhat rusty, but were thoroughly cleaned and just a few very small caverns left that resulted in this kind of dots? Does my theory sound reasonable or there may be some other explanation to this (like for example: dots were intentionally left on the die by engraver, or some technology issues during die preparation, on planshet or during striking, or something other)?

WCO

Any such coin struck after 1859 would be a novodel. No record of such novodels exists. Also, if the dies we so rusty and then polished -- you would not have such high relief -- the coin would be softer.

Now, why would the engraver leave something like that on purpose? An explanation comes to mind -- to recognize his own work. Why -- also explainable, but it would be rather hasty and unsupported by other evidence. So, let us hope that it was not left there on purpose. :-) However, I remember reading an article about 1722 2 rouble coin. This coin only listed as novodel. But, there is a speciment in Russia that is believed to be struck with untempered dies. It also has dots used by engraver to mark the hubs.

Realy, you should find another high relief specimen and compare haircuts. That will answer the most important question -- fake or not.

I don't collect these (yet), but there were three 1859 commemorative roubles sold in the last UBS auction in Switzerland, this lot and the next two:

UBS auction

All three are Bitkin 566 (embossed striking), and all three have the dot after the obverse legend. I could not find the small dots referred to in WCO's last post in any of these, however.

I looked at these coins myself when I went there beforehand to see the other coins I was interested in. The first lot, the best of all, is actually proof-like -- something one would never realize from looking at these dark catalogue images.

Here is the link to the prices realized:

UBS auction -- prices realized (PDF file)

I thought that the estimates for the Nicholas II gold coins, except for the 37-1/2 rouble and 25 rouble rarities, were all too high. Sure enough, most of them didn't sell. Almost all of the older coins sold for 2 to 3 times the estimate, sometimes double the estimate, except for a Catherine II rouble 1763-SPB (Bitkin 183), lot #3910 which also had a much too high estimate for its grade (F/VF, planchet flaw).

The nice Paul I rouble of 1798 that I almost bid on (lot #3934) went for CHF 2000, or 4 times the estimate. The one coin I did bid on -- an 1852-PA prooflike rouble (advertised as proof) -- went for CHF 900, or 4-1/2 times the estimate. But after looking at it myself, I cannot say that it was actually a proof. And if it were a proof, the estimate of CHF 200 was ridiculous.

I think they should get someone else to grade and estimate the coins for their next auction. Whoever put in the estimates for lots 3969-3971 must not know much about these coins at all, IMHO, or else were just plain greedy. Serves them right for not selling them!

Another difference between the medallic and the coin obverse which I noticed looking in Bitkin is the nose. In the medallic obverse, it looks like a boxer's nose, whereas in both the embossed and lower-relief coin obverse, the nose is much more Roman-looking.

Dear BKB, those were just my theories that I can not support. I saw sometimes this kind of "dots" on some coins in different places on each particular coin. Does not look as if they were intentionally left by engraver. I have no idea how to explain them and just gave the first explanation I could think of. May be someone else with deeper knowledge in technology (then my own) can answer about how these "dots" are "made"? Not necessarily on this particular coin in discussion, but in general.

About Novodels or not. This issue is quite complicated, even though some Russian coins were made for more than a year and even more coins were struck well after the end of calendar year (while mintage figures counted for financial year) no one is saying that it is a novodel just because a coin bearing year 1859 was struck in January of 1860.

WCO

Dear WCO, I understand that those are theories. They are sound theories, at that. If you meant that the coin was struck until the end of the fiscal year, you are right -- it is not a novodel even if struck in 1860. But, in order for dies to rust to an extent where there are caverns which cannot be polished out, -- they have to be dormant for a longer period of time than a couple of months. It is tempered steel after all. That is why I do not think that rusty dies theory is an explanation. (IMXO) By the way, dies sometimes crack in a funny way -- coverns could also theoretically be created.

But such dot can only exist if: the coin is a cast copy, or if the die has a hole in it. Now, I assume that you have checked that the coin is not a cast copy. Then it leaves only one option -- holes in the die.

As to who made those holes in the reverse die or why those holes were made (if intentionally) -- only the engraver can tell. And I hope that the engraver of this coin is long dead

Hi everyone!

I truly hope the scans of these three coins will help.

The 1st two are for an NGC MS-63
The 2nd two are for an NGC MS61PL
The 3rd two are for an NGC PF62

Look pretty similar to me..

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Holy! Three 1859 rubles!

Welcome to coinpeople btw!

Thanks a lot. I hope these pictures will help. Sorry for poor quality though..just can not handle slabbed coins with my digital camera :-)

Please check ms63 example, it can help. ;-)