Please take a look -- L I N K.
For background, also please look at the thread: Review of V.V. Kazakov: "Coins of Nicholas II" started earlier by me in this forum.

Hi Bob, glad you enjoyed the JRNS!

Can't help with this question though, unfortunately, though I did learn something today (birdies). Maybe the silver-mavens have something to say?

Best

Steve

That is interesting although I would strongly disagree that it's a Brussels trial pattern coin.

The tick shown in Uzedenikov, shown on page 612/613 is not anything like that.

A more probable explaination is that one of the pointed star on the collar was probably cracked off and hence caused the unusual error.

Looks as regular Brussels coin. Completely agreed with gxseries about explanation of how it could happen. I saw this same kind at least several times, so it is not that unusual error.

WCO

That's what I thought until I read the new Kazakov book. In the preface, he says that the "birdies" are nothing but damaged stars on the edging device. He says that he examined these coins and came to that conclusion.

Where are the real pattern coins, in the Hermitage or perhaps Smithsonian collections? I would love to see a real coin which has the mark as illustrated by Uzdenikov. gxseries is correct, of course -- my coin's edge mark looks nothing like that design. However, it does look very much like the illustrations in Kazakov.

BTW, thanks to everyone for your replies!

Never seen that book of Kazakov, I am sorry can't comment therefore. Authentic pieces of pattern (I do not know for sure just assume) may be looked for at Hermitage and Moscow State Historical Museum, may be at Brussels mint arhives too.

Speaking of these trial coins, I looked in the Bitkin reference and couldn't find any mention of them. RW Julian lists them together with the illustration of the "birdies" as found in Uzdenikov's "Russian Coins" book, but doesn't go any further into detail about them.

Does anyone know of any other references which have information about these coins which is NOT already shown in Uzdenikov?

References:

1. Bitkin first edition page 600.

2. Adrianov listed as Adr.-2919 and Adr.-2920, page 247, and two pictures of edges on page 248. Easily visible that it has nothing to do with a broken star. (However those may be the same pictures as shown in Uzdenikov catalogue).

Спасибо большое!
Looks like I really need the Adrianov book now...also for the information about the counterfeits!

More than glad if it helps!

Good book, but quite scarce. Russian catalogue (text on Russian only) that in a single volume lists Russian and Soviet era coins with overdates and overmintmasters for Imperial coinage plus rare varieties of coins of USSR. Very useful.

Maybe RW Julian can shed some light on this issue. It has been 13 years since his book came out and I am sure Bob has new information by now.
Bob, HELP!
I actually happened to have one of these, so I will take a picture and post it here in a few days.

FINALLY, a supposedly genuine 1897 pattern rouble is being auctioned in the upcoming NY Sale of Dmitry Markov:

1897 Brussels pattern with two ticks on the edge

Thank goodness it isn't slabbed!

If all goes well, I will at least be able to examine it personally on Saturday in Basel. I will bring my Nikon CoolPix camera with me and ask if I can take a picture of the edge. If this isn't possible, I will make a pencil sketch of the edge ticks. Either way, the rest of you will get to see it.

With all the respect to Dm. Markov.

I personally am very cautious when I see Nicholas II era patterns, that should not be even circulating, in such awful condition as offered. Something does not look right for me. Any thoughts?

WCO

All I can say is that the Kazakov catalog (which even states that there were no such "pattern" coins, but merely coins struck with damaged edge devices) lists them in condition no better than VF. However, his prices are only $400 for two ticks in VF and $200 for one tick, and even less for grade F. The coin advertised is only G or VG at best (IMHO) since even the rims are quite worn down.

Of course, I have no intention of bidding on this coin for the same reasons you suggest -- I also find it hard to believe that a pattern coin would show such signs of circulation. But I do want to see what these ticks look like! I bet they don't look anything like the pictures in Uzdenikov.

WCO speaking of which, would you have any idea about the 1958 pattern series that were "accidently" released into circulation? It did happen before in history did it?

Good day, gxseries.

What about 1958 Patterns? If you are speaking about those that were made in Aluminum, then they never were "accidently" released into circulation and never were found in circulation. If you are speaking about other 1958 coins - they are not patterns.

WCO

!!!

Really? Then why do all 1958 that I see are so expensive?!

http://www.anythinganywhere.com/commerce/c...s/rus-1958.html

Those are not Patterns but regular coinage struck for circulation. Never released into circulation officially though. Some of the coins somehow made into circulation and circulated (possibly were stolen from the mint). 1958 coins look very similar to 1961 type coins so looks as some people did not find better use for them as to use them as money. They are quite expensive because they are scarce, I guess.

But this story has nothing to do with Brussels coins.

WCO

WCO, I know that I was going offtopic. All I wanted to know is that if there were any cases of patterns coins accidently released into the public. Looks like such cases are either very rare or simply non-existance

gxseries,

May be there were such cases, but I can't recall any on an instant. At least they are not common. That's why Brussels "Pattern" coin with signs of heavy circulation looks suspicious to me.

Best regards,
WCO

Well, I went to Basel this morning to look at this rouble. The dealer who handles the coins in Europe, Dr. Voegtli, was very gracious and let me take a picture of the edge. Unfortunately the picture came out very fuzzy -- too fuzzy to be of any use to anyone, as the camera auto-focussed on the table background and not on the coin.

However, I can describe the marks as not looking anything like the illustrations in Uzdenikov, etc. They are very small and look rather like distorted stars; also, they are not the same. I think V.V. Kazakov is probably right in his assessment of the matter. But judge for yourself; here is my amateurish attempt at a sketch:


And here is the photo, maybe it is useful in spite of being out of focus:

Doh bobh. Have you tried the macro zoom on your digital camera? It should be denoted as a flower sign on your digital camera, hopefully it is new.

Otherwise try an indirect shot angle, that is from the side. It might work. Or you might want to practise tonight if the dealer is nice enough to let you reshoot the photo the next day

Unfortunately, the coins are being shipped to the U.S. now.

I did have the macro selection turned on, but the camera decided to focus on the background rather than the foreground. Since he was doing me a favor by letting me take a picture at all, I didn't want to try his patience by taking dozens of shots. Of course, if I had been able to do this at home, I would have been able to take a better picture.

Hi,

I am from Belgium, so if you need some questions to be asked to the mint in the native languages of Belgium (Dutch & French), I can always help out.

I'm not that familiar with Russian coinage, but I'm always interested in reading about rare coins, also patterns and trial strikes. That's why I landed in this thread.

Regards,

Jos

Thank you, Jos.
Do you know perhaps how one could find the Belgian mint reports for 1897/98?

I will try to find out.

I'll keep you posted.

Regards

Jos

I have an 1899 rouble that has those odd looking (birdies?) on the rim. I never really paid much attention to them though.

To keep my promise, here is a scan of the 1897 rouble's edge.

Thank you, IgorS.

This is very interesting because those "trial pattern" coins were supposedly made only in 1897. If similar ones exist for later years, it would indicate (or perhaps prove) that these "birdies" or ticks are merely a special kind of error coin resulting from broken stars on the edging device.

Here's one being offered on eBay right now:

1897-** rouble with two ticks (or birdies) on the edge -- ???

Coin is in terrible condition, though -- lots of wear, and there are ugly file test marks on it. The edge of the coin in the last N.Y. Sale, which I attempted to photograph in Basel, looked quite similar to this one.

What do you think??