Many people in the Russian coin Forum are familiar with the short-lived Dassier Ruble type issued in 1757 only.

Dassier's portrait type is arguably the most attractive and flattering to the Empress of any of the multiple portrait types (by different engravers) issued during her reign.

What is not as frequently seen is the original medal commemorating the founding of Moscow State University in 1754.

The portrait was modified somewhat and the relief lowered for the ruble die.

Shown here is Dassier's 1756 medal which served as the model for the 1757 ruble portrait.

(Had trouble uploading. Images are shown further down in this thread)



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Where are the pictures

I'll try again.

Same error message. I don't know why it isn't working.

I'm sorry, I guess I'm highly impatient when it comes to topics that I don't know

Grivna, perhaps you might want to open a free account at www.imageshack.us and you can upload almost unlimited amount of uploads in there, except for super large jpgs that are larger than 1.5mb

Thank you for your suggestion, gx. That worked very well.

Here is the ruble with the revised portrait and lowered relief.

Here is another portrait medal which, like the first medal shown, is signed by Dassier. I have not been able to find any information about it.

The portrait is very similar to that used for the ruble, but in higher relief. It has been struck from rusty dies, which suggests that it was made many years later, probably from old dies left in storage.

It is possible that this medal represents a transition between the 1754 Moscow State University medal and the ruble. It is unclear what the purpose of this medal was but the empty field on the reverse suggests it was to be awarded and the recipent's name engraved on the reverse.

If anyone has further information about this medal, please post it here. Thanks!

I googled it up on the net and this is what I found:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:-N5xVK1...au&ct=clnk&cd=1

The original site is dead, so I'm using google cache. Thank godness for google's cache.

На учреждение Московского Университета


Л. ст. Погрудное изображение императрицы Елизаветы I вправо с ниспадающими на плечи локонами, в короне и мантии. Круговая легенда: «D. G. ELISABETHA I - IMP AVTOCR OMN ROSS» (Божьей милостью Елизавета I Императрица и Самодержица Всероссийская). Под изображением: подпись медальера — «DASSIER».
Об. ст. На переднем плане аллегорическое изображение России — женщина в короне и мантии, окруженная атрибутами наук, искусств и промышленности, сидит у подножия монумента, опираясь на щит с Государственным гербом с вензелем Императрицы, украшенного гирляндами цветов; вдали вид Московского Кремля. Надпись по верху: «NOVA SIBI MONVMENTA PARAVIT» (Воздвигла себе новый памятник). Под обрезом: «ACADEM MOSQ INSTIT / MDCCLIV /» (Основанием Московского Университета 1754). СРМ, № 133. Крест короны расположен правее второй литеры «М» в слове «MONVMENTA».
Серебро. Д - 51. В - 76,70; 76,50; 76,59. ГИМ. (Табл. ХХIХ,30)

This is the description of the first medal. The one I show is in bronze, not silver. Perhaps it also exists in gold?

Babelfish translates as:

# to the establishment of Moscow University #
l. st. the pogrudnoye image of empress Elizabeth I to the right with the descending on the arms curls, in the crown and the mantle. Circular legend: "D G ELISABETHA I - IMP AVTOCR OMN ROSS" (by God favor Elizabeth THE I empress Samoderzhitsa All-Russian). Under the image: the signature of medalist - "DASSIER". About. st. in the foreground the allegorical image of Russia - woman in the crown and the mantle, surrounded by the attributes of sciences, skills and industry, sits at the foot of monument, relying on panel with the state coat of arms with the monogram of empress, decorated with garlands it is color; far the form of the Moscow Kremlin. Inscription on the top: "NOVA SIBI MONVMENTA PARAVIT" (Vozdvigla to itself new monument). Under the edge: "ACADEM MOSQ INSTIT/MDCCLIV/" (By base Of Moscow University 1754). SRM, № 133. The cross of crown is located more to the right the second letter "M" in the word "MONVMENTA". Silver. D - 51. C - 76,70; 76,50; 76,59. GIM. (Table khkh.ikh, 30)




The second medal (the one struck with the rusty dies) is a mystery to me. The obverse Latin legend says something like "Elizabeth the Great".

"Dignissimo" seems to mean something like "For Merit", which suggests it is an award for excellence in some field of endeavor. It is signed "DASSIER" so it seems to be his work and not that of someone copying his work. Beyond that, I know nothing about the second medal.

http://museum.guru.ru/relikvii/exposicia.phtml

shows this picture



and says

Медаль, выпущенная к основанию Московского университета

На одной стороне медали изображена императрица Елизавета Петровна, по краю надпись по-латыни - "D.G.Elisavetha.I.Imp.Auctor.Omn.Ross." ("Божиею Милостью Елизавета I Императрица Всероссийская". На другой стороне композиция, изображающая императрицу у подножия колонны, увенчанной ее вензелем и короной, надпись по-латыни "Nova Sibi Monumenta Paravit" ("Приготовила себе новый памятник"). Внизу "Academ.Mosc.Instit" ("Основала Московскую Академию"). Обращает внимание дата внизу медали (римскими цифрами) 1754, что говорит о намерении провести инаугурацию университета на несколько месяцев раньше (летом-осенью 1754 г.), чем это произошло на самом деле.


which Babelfish translates as:


Medal, released to the base of Moscow University

On one side of medal is depicted empress Elizabeth Petrovna, on the edge inscription in Latin - "D.G.Elisavetha.I.Imp.Auctor.Omn.Ross." ("By bozhiyeyu Favor Elizabeth I Empress vserossiyskaya". On other side the composition, which depicts empress in the foot of the column, crowned by its monogram and crown, inscription in Latin "Nova Sibi Monumenta Paravit" ("prepared to itself new monument"). Below "Academ.Mosc.Instit" ("Established Moscow Academy"). The date of the below medal (by roman numerals) of 1754 focuses attention, which indicates the intention to conduct the inauguration of university to several months earlier (by letom-osen'yu of 1754), than this occurred in reality.

I knew I found it too quick and it served me right for not checking the content.

This MIGHT be a book that you want to get Grivna,

Eisler, William - The Dassiers of Geneva: 18th Century European Medallists. Volume I. Jean Dassier, Medal Engraver: Geneva, Paris and London, 1700-1733. The initial volume of the first scholarly study on the Dassier family. 304 pages 8 1/4 X 11 3/4 card covers. heavily illustrated. new. If you collect Dassier medals, this is just what you need.

which I found on this page: http://georgemanzcoins.com/books/medals.html

Not too sure if anyone in this forum happens to have this book.

Thank you, gx.

I am mostly interested in Dassier's Russian medallic work, which seems to have been quite limited.

I'll have a look around on the net for that book and subsequent volumes. The one in the link appears to be sold.

Might want to try this link:

http://www.numishop.eu/ficheboutique.php?i...lib&argretour=1

Not too sure if there are other online stores that have it for cheaper. Seems very pricey though

No kidding. 97€ is ~$125, which probably doesn't include shipping. Volume II would likely be of more interest, because it covers Jacques Antoine's (Jean's son) output in Russia, which is the part which specifically interests me.

I'll look around on the net. I'm in no rush to get it.

Thanks for the link, gx.

There's a fairly limited pair of entries on the Dassiers in Forrer, particularly considering the volume of work they put out. But there's nothing specific on the Russian work beyond listing what it was.

Thank you. Hopefully one of the Russian specialists who post here will have some information on the second medal (the one struck with the rusty dies), or else know someone who does.

A serries of books by Mikhail Diakov on the subject of 'MEDALS of the RUSSIAN EMPIRE' are in process of being published. 4 volumes are already published. They cover period from Peter I to Nicholas I. 3 more volumes will complete the series shortly.
The medal struck from the rusty dies pictured above is a copy of a medal by an unknown engraver. The original did not have a portrait, but an inscription that read - Elizabeth the Great Patron of Sciences and Fine Arts. The reverse is similar to the original and reads "DIGNISSIMO" - To the most worthy. So it is basically an award medal. Originals were struck in silver, so you are correct to say that yours was struck from rusty dies at a later date.
One more medal was engraved by Dassier in Russia. It was struck in 1758 to honor Count Peter Shuvalov.

Thank you for this information. I have seen some of Diakov's books on the coins, but not those of the medals.







Is this medal struck with the rusty dies listed in Diakov?

I'm not sure I understand correctly, but I think you are saying that the engraver of this medal struck from the rusty dies is unknown.

From what I have seen of 18th century medals, they were commonly copied by other engravers and either signed by the person making the copy, or else left unsigned. But this one is signed "DASSIER" under the portrait. If it is not Dassier's work, then wouldn't it represent a departure from established practice for an engraver to sign using the name of another engraver?

If I were to paint paintings in the style of Picasso or Reubens and then sign those paintings with their names, then I would be considered an art forger. Would that then not make a medal created in the style of Dassier and signed (by someone else) with his name a forgery?

Or am I misunderstanding what you are saying?





I have heard of this medal but have never seen it. I assume it is rare.

Thank you for your reply and welcome to this board.

Grivna1726, Thank you for welcoming me to the forum. I am glad to be here.
I am sorry if I was not clear in my original post. I will try to clarify:
1. Your medal is engraved by Dassier.
2. Your medal is descibed in Diakov's catalog as a copy.
3. The one described as original had a similar reverse - "Dignissimo", but the averse did not have a portrait, but a 6 line inscription.

I agree with you about copies of the medals and do not quite understand why it is described as a copy in the catalog, since it has a completely different averse with a portrait of Elizabeth. I will try to find out why the book mentions it as a copy.

Here is Shuvalov's medal. In the trancation it reads "Dassier k.v.a" It is a copy and k.v.a. stands for "Copy by Vasily Alekseev". It was engraved and struck much later than the original. Looks the same though (almost).

Thank you, I understand now what you were trying to tell me.

The use of rusty dies suggests that it was struck many years later (maybe during the reign of Catherine II). Are there any medals struck with this Dassier die during the time that Dassier was in Russia, or was the die made but not used and then pulled out of storage years later to make "novodels" of the medal from that die?

If there are medals struck from this die during the 2 years Dassier was at the mint, are they also in bronze or or were they struck in other metals? Do they use the same reverse (Dignissimo) die?

The portrait used on the rusty die is so close to that used on the ruble, that I think it might well have served as the model for the coin (rather than the portrait used on the Founding of Moscow University medal as I previously believed).

Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions. I have not found it easy to locate information about this medal and am delighted to finally have made contact with someone who knows something about it. I am deeply grateful for your information and assistance.

BTW, your avatar is a most impressive and rare coin. I don't think I have ever seen the 1707 grivennik before. Even the 1932 Hess sale 210 did not have an example of this coin!

Thank you.

This the first time I have seen this medal. The reverse is a clear reference to Shuvalov's military responsibilities during Elizabeth's reign. He was possibly the most powerful person in the Imperial court after the Empress herself.

The 'Dignisimo' medal by Dassier was struck in silver during Dassier's time at the mint. The medal you have is struck from original Dassier dies later on (as you mentioned) and is called NOVODEL CLASS 1 (I think), which means exactly that - struck later from original dies. It was pretty popular for nobelman in Imperial Russia to have a coin/medal collection in the library at their houses. So it was a common practice for collectors to come to the mint and place an order for the medals to be struck. Mint had a 'menu' with prices depending on the metal and medal one wanted. If mint did not have the original dies, they would get engraver to make the new ones similar to the old, but with a name of a current engraver and simetime with a mention of the original engraver (like the Shuvalov medal that I posted).
Grivna1726, you probably know all of the above. Hopefully someone out there will find this information usefull, or may be someone out there will correct me if I am wrong. I have been wrong before .

I was very lucky to get 1707 grivennik. You are correct in saying that it was not offered in Hermitage Duplicates sale by Hess, as a matter of fact it was not offered in any auction in 20th century.

Help! How do I quote previous posts in my replies?

Thank you.

Have you ever seen any of the original silver strikes of the Dassier dignissimo medal or know of any offerings? I have a fairly good library, but it is by no means complete. I have never seen a silver example of the Dassier portrait dignissimo medal, nor am I aware of any being offered, but that doesn't mean that there haven't been multiple offerings of which I am unaware.



What you say about practices at the mint is consistent with what I have previously understood. What you say about the Dassier medal in particular is new to me, but makes sense and fits with what I do know about Dassier and his stay in Russia. My interest in Dassier's medallic work flows directly from my interest in the silver ruble series, especially the attractive portrait used on Dassier's ruble and the place his medallic art occupies in the development of that coin (rather than as a collector of the Dassier family's various medallic series who just happens to have an associated interest in the coins).




It is a great rarity. You must have a highly advanced collection to own such a coin. It is one of those underrated minor coins that collectors never really appreciate until they start trying to find one. The coin is just never offered (in any condition).





Just click on the "quote" button when you want to reply. The full text of the message to which you are replying will appear in your message window.

Thank you. There are so many buttons on the screen.

I agree with you, Dassier's work is a great contribution to Russian numismatics. Interestingly enough Elizabeth did not like the portrat as she thought her hair looked too simple (no fancy curls). I have never seen "Dignissimo" medal for sale, except WWCC sale 9. I assume your medal is from there. , but I do have a University medal in silver. I will try to post it here.

I saw your 1726 grivna. It is a beauty. I can see that you are very advanced . I recently saw a similar piece sell in Europe for huge money.

[attachmentid=1671][attachmentid=1672]
Here it is.

It just hit me. There was another medal by Dassier - death of Peter the Great.
Only the obverse fits in the post. It is in bronze, even though looks like silver.

Thank you for your kind words.

I don't have much Peter I minor silver, but I do have this coin. It is rare, but not as rare as your 1707 grivennik.

I am not sure, but I think it is possibly a novodel (although I would normally expect a novodel to be better struck in the center).

That is truly beautiful. I have this medal, but only in bronze.

If memory is correct, I think that is the work of Jean Dassier, Jacques-Antoine's father.

It's a beautiful medal. It's not hard to see why the Dassiers were so highly regarded in Europe for their medallic art.

Based on Diakov's book this medal is also by Jacques Dassier.
If you have some references to the fact that this medal is by his father, it would be very interesting.

1714 five kopeks seems to be a novodel, as you mentioned. Interestingly enough someone went into trouble of trying to make it look like an original by making it look worn and covering up some letters that could provide the correct information.
In the original the russian 'P' in word kopeck looks like 'II' without the bar on top joining the two IIs, in the novodel it should be normal. But in your coin it is impossible to tell because of the damage in that location. Interesting!

Then I am almost certainly mistaken.



I cannot find a specific reference to that effect. Forrer mentions in passing that Jean Dassier made 2 medals of Peter I (without specifying which ones they are), but says nothing of any medals of Peter by Jacques-Antoine. Maybe I just put 2 and 2 together and came up with 5.

Is your medal signed? Jean signed at least some of his medals "J.D.".

But I am getting in way over my head here and am unsure of which Dassier engraved the Death of Peter I medal. If Diakov says it is Jacques-Antoine's work rather than Jean's, then I will readily defer to his superior knowledge in such matters.

I will reply in a few days. I want to have a closer look at the coin in hand before I respond.

In the Grand Duke's unpublished plates for 1711-1719, Plate 78 has five silver 5 kopeck pieces (Nos. 9-13) then - about 1914 - considered to be originals. The dies for your piece do not match any of the five coins, indicating that it is likely a novodel.

RWJ

Diakov compiled a lot of information and I am sure there are discrepancies as he is only human . The medal is signed I.D.

Thank you for this information. I have long suspected that this coin is a novodel, but never knew for sure. My version of GM is the Quarterman reprint, which does not include anything from Peter I.

Perhaps so, but Diakov is in Moscow, presumably with access to collections, experts (and possibly archival documents) that are not available to me. It would take a special foolhardy conceit to flatly contradict such a person, especially when uncertain of one's facts.




I.D. is pretty much equivalent to J.D., which Jean Dassier was known to use. However, it might also represent Jacques Dassier, so that is hardly persuasive (although I am not aware of Jacques signing his work in this manner).

If it is known when the Death of Peter I medal was engraved, then that might prove helpful. Jacques was born in 1715 so it is highly unlikely that he would have engraved such a medal until at least the mid-1730s (at the very earliest) which would place him in mid-adolescence and probably still learning the art of die engraving. Engraving a medal of such importance would seem more likely the work of a master engraver rather than that of an apprentice.

Jean Dassier died in 1769, a decade after the death of his son Jacques in 1759.

So, if the medal was made either before or after the reign of Elizabeth Petrovna (1741-61), then it is probably Jean Dassier's work. If engraved during the reign of Elizabeth, then it could be either Jean or Jacques (but with Jacques more being likely, in my opinion).

I might easily be mistaken about this being Jean Dassier's work, and look forward to hearing from others who might be able to shed some light on the matter.

I wanted to get to the bottom of this. It was time to use my bookshelf.
First - Iversen's book on medals of Peter the Great. This medal is pictured, but it simply expands I.D. as Dassier. No first name.
Second - Andolenko's comments on Iversen's book. No mentioning of this medal.
Third - Shchukina's 2002 book on monograms and signatures on Russian Medals of 18th - beginning of 20th century. This book mentions that Jaques Dassier had a two year contract in Russia and engraved Shuvalov's medal, Moscow University medal and also created dies for 1 and 10 roubles. It also breaks down initials J.D. as Jaques Dassier. No mentioning of 'Dignissimo' medal or Peter I death medal.

Still no answer...

Shchukina is an impressive source and her rendering of "J.D." as "Jacques Dassier" seems persuasive.

But see this link for a page of medals signed by Jean and Jacques.

If you check the attributions for these medals, "J.D." or "I.D." is attributed to Jean Dassier.

Medals attributed to his son, Jacques-Antoine, are signed variously

Ja. Ant. Dassier
I. A. Dassier
A. Dassier
J. A. Dassier
Iac. Ant. Dassier.

If (notice the qualifier) this signing pattern remained consistent, then that would suggest the Death of Peter medal is actually the work of Jean Dassier rather that that of his son.

It gets murky, doesn't it?

Thank you for the link. I actually communicated with Dr. Weiss in the past. Great site he has. And what do you know, on the page you refered us to I see death of Peter I medal and here is Dr. Weiss's description of the medal:

DASSIER, Jean: Russia, 1725, Bronze, 38 mm
Obv: Bust of Peter ® PETRUS MAGN. IMP. UTRIUSQ. RUSS. (Peter the Great – Emperor of Both Russias) (Great and Little Russia, corresponding to modern day Russia and Ukraine)
Rev: Neptune with his trident pointing to ships, and Pallas Athena (Minerva) in helmet, holding the shield of Medusa, pointing to St. Petersburg, architectural emblems at their feet. EX. UTROQUE MAGNUS (Legend and devices refer to Peter's legacy as a ruler “Great on both land and sea”).
Exergue: NAT. 30 MAII. 1672 M. 28 J. 1725.
Signed: I.D.
From Jean Dassier's Series of Famous Men
Scarce
Ref: Iversen p.62, No. 5;

So up above he is referring to Jean Dassier's Series of Famous Men.
I think we are almost there. We just need to find out more about this series, but I am not sure where. We can try to ask Dr. Weiss where he found his information.

Dr. Peter J. Thompson says this on page 4 of his book "The Dassier Family and its Medals":

"Other medals struck by Jean Dassier at about this time include:-

...Peter the Great of Russia, Memorial, 1725 (38mm diameter)"


It seems the authorities are divided, with some saying it is Jean's work and others saying or suggesting that it is Jacques'.

If this medal was created at the time of Peter's death in 1725, then it seems improbable that Jacques could have created it at the tender age of ten. This, if accurate, supports the contention that Jean Dassier engraved the medal.

Additionally, the "I.D." signature seems consistent with Jean Dassier.

While the matter is far from clear, Jean seems more likely to be the engraver based on the available information. Still, the fact that a recognized expert like Mme. Shchukina apparently says otherwise is enough to give pause and make the wise cautious in saying so.

Hi,
Just short note. Dies was cleaned before struck .You can find similar 5 kopecks 1714 Novodel struck with same dies in Markov/Baldwin’s catalog from 01.16.03 :lot#560 5 kopecks 1714 , and lot #559 5 kopecks 1713 with similar cleaning on dies.

RARENUM, thank you for posting this information. Unfortunately, the catalog is not available online at Markov's website. If possible, would you please post a scan of the lots from the catalog for the purpose of comparison?

Thank you.

The New York Sale
Auction VI
January 16,2003
The Russian Collection
Baldwin's Auctions Ltd, London
Dmitry Markov Coins & Medals, New York
M&M Numismatics Ltd, Washington DC
Lot 560

Thank you, Steve.

The Markov coin has more detail than mine, but does seem to be from the same dies (or, at least, very similar ones).

Agreed. The reverse shows the same die nick on the top-left of the 7.

Steve

Thank You Steve for images from catalog.

I'm sorry for delay I was busy with my work before vacation .Thank You to Steven .+ I should check my collection to comparison your coin . Will post more images after 09.29.06.

Thank you. I look forward to seeing them when you return.