Gxseries, you mentioned this coin in the Borodino 1 rouble topic, so I decided to provide an illustration (just love playing with that web image engine) :-) I admit I was lucky to find this one -- it is MS61PL.

In truth, I could not find much information on the actual mintage left. I know that originally 6,000 were minted along with some 160,000 of roubles. However, coins were unpopular and were either overstruck or melted down. Only 20,000 of the total mintage was left (both rouble and 1 1/2 I assumed until now). However, I could not find the information that all 1 1/2 were ordered to be destroyed. Can you point me toward your source?

obverse:

I am sorry for image quality -- had to shoot through the slab :-(

That is an impressive coin and not at all easy to find.

Regarding the order, all I know is that most of these coins were melted.

Given the historical importance of the Battle of Borodino and the presumed retention of the bulk of the issue in official hands, it is difficult to understand how the coins could have been melted down without an order (or, at the very least, approval of a request) from senior levels of the government, if not from the Tsar himself. If the order is not contained in the archived documents published with the original edition of GM's corpus, then I don't know where documentation of it would be found.

Perhaps someone at the Hermitage might have an answer?

Well, there is an order. Actually there is a number of orders on the subject in GM. However, the order that specifically speaks of destruction of these coins only speaks of rubles. It says that all must be melted, but 20,000 roubles shall remain. These coins were held at the mint for a while, because they were sold to general public at nominal (one for one) However, the coins were not popular and no one wanted to exchange it (everyone was holding on to the regular issue 1839 probably - just joking) Thus, the order came to destroy all but 20,000 rubles. Now, is it 20,000 one ruble coin? or is it 20,000 rubles worth of all coins? There is no breakdown. And, if it is the second reading, then what was the proportion between 1 and 1 1/2 remaining. If it was the same proportion at which these coins were issued (160,000+ 1 rouble to 6,000 of 1 1/2) then the remaining amount of 1 1/2 is under 800 coins (still too high judging from the frequency of their appearance at auctions). But, if all 1 1/2 were melted except for a small amount sold to the public at face value from the mint, then the coin should appear less frequently then it does nowdays.

Thus, it would be interesting to find a source explaining what really happened.

I see the problem.

My guess is that it was 20,000 rubles worth of one ruble coins since there were so many more of them, but, given that mintage figures for copper coins were often expressed as so many rubles worth of coins, it could just as easily be 20,000 rubles in value of all coins.

I don't have the version of GM which includes the archival documents, but if the answer is not there, then I wonder if any such document exists. GM would likely have had access to just about anything he wanted and anything which would have given a answer to that question would almost certainly have been of interest to him and his collaborating numismatists.

Wow impressive one there BKB! Am I assuming that it was one of the coins from Dmitri Markov auctions?

Regardless, if I am not mistaken, the source that I quoted it from was from Konros, "History of Monetary striking in Russia" 2nd Edition, St. Petersburg, 2000.

The source appearently goes on to describe that in 1839, 160,000 1 ruble coins were struck, and 6000 of 1.5 rubles. But in 1840, because of a serious lack of demand, 10,000 of such coins are to be in Moscow and another 10,000 to be in St. Petersburg. These are supposely only for military commemorative coins, but appearently the solders were already paid in common rubles. There are no mention of 1.5 rubles to be kept and I don't know why. And indeed, there was an order to destroy the rest of the 140,000 and whatever 1.5 rubles there are.

But remember, the denomination of 1.5 rubles is a complete foreign idea to most Russians. The denomination was only created in 1833, and that was actually a dual denomination with the Polish coinages, and is always denoted as 1.5 rubles - 10 zlots. And in 1835, the first commemorative ruble in such denomination was struck. I know how impressive that coin could be - afterall it's a massive one ounce coin!

As of how many of 1.5 rubles exist, I don't think anyone would really know as there is no futher details if such culling did occur, and if it did, there are often no details of how much were melted.

There is some other interesting thing about 1.5 rubles struck in St. Petersburg. It seems that after 1838, such coins are actually difficult to find for some reasons. Is this because St. Petersburg mint decided to strike a lot less of these coins? But are these related to the striking of the Borodino rubles and cullage orders? Not only that, normal coins from 1838 to 1841 all faced some kind of issues, and 1841 was the very last year, that the huge denomination 1841 was to end. Did St. Petersburg mint actually struggle to meet with demand and actually had supply issue? Was the culling of Borodino rubles necessary to keep up with the demand?

Guess there are plenty of questions there

Thank you for the source. Would never think of Conros... I do not have any of them. Would it be possible for you to photograph that article if I do not find it myself?

The coin is not from Dmitry Markov. Markovs was MS62, but was not that spectacular. This one is prooflike, which indicates that it was one of the first coins struck. The last time it sold at auction was well over 10 years ago. (I think at UBS auction) I purchased it by a private treaty.

I most definately would be willing to post a copy of it, but I have lost the original source somewhere while reading it in the public

Regardless, those are the notes I took from the book, and I believe that should be most of it.

BKB, are you aware that there seems to be two varieties of such rubles? It seems that there are long and short ray version and I don't know which is scarcer. I was thinking it could have been with the 1 ruble instead of the 1.5 ruble as publication error. Just wondering if you have come across such variety mentioned.

Ok, I will look for that conros. If I finf it, I will post that article.

There are indeed 2 varieties. Short rays and long rays. Mine is long rays. I cannot comment on the relative rarity (I am an interested party ).

However, my decision to purchase this coin was influenced by the fact that it is a Long Ray variety. To me it seemed that most of those that came up for sale were the short ray variety.

As to roubles, the die varieties also exsist (as it should with mintages of 160,000+) However, as I was not nterested in purchasing a rouble (until now) it never occured to me to research its die varieties. Now I may want to buy it to make a set... Should have bought it 10 years ago for $400

Tell me more about it

I started just around 3-4 years ago, and I remember paying probably 80USD for the Borodino ruble, although I am never too sure if it is a genuine one or not. (highly likely to be). The most foolish action was that I remember seeing an impaired proof Borodin 1 ruble coin for just 550usd - aren't I fool for not getting it?

But honestly, what puzzles me is why authors like Uzedenikov have noted that the Borodino ruble is actually scarer than the Column ruble, when there are supposely 160,000 of such rubles minted, and if there were 20,000 left over after the order, that is definately greater than the mintage of 15,000 for the Column ruble.

Does that mean that actually more rubles were melted down? But how would that explain the current availability of the 1.5 rubles?

Feel free to use my pictures if they are of any use to you, although I doubt my tiny collection is of almost any significance importance.

thank you for your generous offer (re: using your pictures). I may take you up on it (your 1730 Anna rouble)

Borodino rouble is scarcer than the Column. Just accept it, I guess.

As to availability of 1.5 -- when prices go up people start selling. If you take only the past couple of years I can name over 20 GREAT RARITIES offered for sale and sold. Stuff that you never saw since the Tolstoy Collection was sold.

I agree, I have seen one in hand but the price tag was something like 12,000usd or so but it got sold eventually. Not something I will afford any time soon Maybe when I REALLY start to work

Regarding about the Anna ruble, I will post more photos in that post. You will have to see how wrong and awful the ruble is. I have talked with Grivna about that ruble, and he agreed that it is unusual. More on that post.