Jetons by Gadoury

[bagerap]

Does anyone own a copy, and is it a worthwhile purchase?

[frank]

What is the publication you're referring to? I have a hard-bound sale catalogue from 1992 (I think) which I used to think was useful --until I started to go through cgb.fr's archives. I also look through inumis.fr's archives, although they got into the jeton game a bit later than cgb.

[bagerap]

It's this Frank:

 

http://www.gadoury.com/en/books/jetons-1991

[frank]

Yes, that's the one I have. Is is useful for the pictures, and for the handy organization that (like everyone selling jetons) follows Feuardent. It's very annoying to figure out sometimes just where in Feuardent to look for a specific jeton. I just pick up Gadoury and check quickly the organization in the table of contents.

 

The problem with this book for me is that Gadoury's notions of what's rare or not are not always in the ballpark. It may be very helpful if you're only collecting 19th-c. jetons, which is what Gadoury does best. I collect 16th-c jetons which, because they are often rare, are harder to come by and harder to price. In the 1992 book Gadoury has very few 16th-c jetons (why exactly I don't know; it may be a conscious choice) and when he has one, he doesn't know how to price it.

 

I've spent many days going through the online archives for jeton sales at cgb.fr (which is usually too expensive, except for their e-auctions) or at inumis.fr (which is less expensive but does lower volume). It has helped me enormously in determining just what a good price might be for a particular jeton. The mintages for earlier jetons are rarely known (unlike coins) so you just have to check how often a particular piece comes on the market. I've gotten in the habit of searching ebay.fr --not to buy anything, just to get a sense of what's more common, what's rarely seen.

[bagerap]

I agree on inumis, I've done very well on one purchase they'd wrongly ID'd. I find some of the prices on ebay.fr , ambitious.

[frank]

Yes, it takes a good sense of humor. French sellers seem to have a system where they will ask a very high price and try to convince everyone of the great value of what they're trying to sell... over and over and over, for years (it seems). Eventually they will dump the piece for 1/3 of what they were asking --but anonymously, so no one knows.

 

That said, I have seen a few rare pieces that are actually put up for auction go quite low on ebay.fr --or at least a good deal lower than prices at cgb.fr or inumis.fr.

[constanius]

Nothing to add to the topic, I just want to wish you both a belated "Happy New Year" & hope you both find some bargains

 

Bonne chance mes amis.

[constanius]

Here is a rather special jeton

 

PIETATE ET IVSTITIA

AVT VINCI • VOS (AVT) Mori

 

 

[thedeadpoint]

Beautiful jeton!

[constanius]

It is worn and has been nailed to a house beam(or something like) but it appears to be unlisted. The only reference I cannot check is Mitchiner, perhaps Ian might see this and check for me.

 

Obv. PIETATE ET ISVTITIA

Rev. AVT VINCI VOS (AVT) Mori

 

It should be Charles IX of France 1560-1574, this is the nearest I can get pictorially to the reverse but the legends are wrong, any with the correct legends are pictorially different. There is some overlap with legends & images of the following monarchs but it is almost certain it belongs under Charles IX.

 

[frank]

Love the jeton with the square nail hole, Pat. A great find. I agree, I don't think it's in Feuardent. I also don't think it's a Nuremberg copy --it's high quality engraving and the metal seems pretty solid.

 

French sellers often will list "not in Feuardent" jetons as "Finédit" --that is, Feuardent inédit, not in his édition. This is a happy shorthand --every time I see Finédit, I think FINE...

[constanius]

I like Finédit more than "inconnu à Feuardent" used often here http://books.openedition.org/editionsbnf/874 where my comparison picture came from. How long it will be freely available to peruse online I do not know but it is well worth a look, lots of great images(downloadable) and rare examples of Finédit or FINE

 

This is mentioned on the above link,

 

"AVT VINCI VOS AVT MORI (« Il vous faudra ou bien être vaincus ou bien mourir »)

Détournement subtil et ironique de la maxime latine Aut vincere aut mori (Ou bien vaincre ou bien mourir)"

Google translate,

"AVT VINCI VOS AVT MORI ("You will either have to be defeated or die").

Subtle and ironic subversion of the Latin maxim Aut vincere aut mori (Or conquer or die)"

I thought that vinci and vincere had the same meaning, overcome, defeat, win, be victorious.

Some jeton use VINCERE, some VINCI any thoughts on that Frank?

[frank]

I don't think I've ever seen one with AVT VINCERE instead of AVT VINCI. Like you, I also thought that VINCERE and (late Latin) MORIRE could be rendered as VINCI and MORI --but then again, my Latin isn't my strongest subject...

 

There are some pretty wild alternative spellings on some French early jetons. There's the Henri III-era series --often copied by Nuremberg engravers-- that has on one side the motto DE PRVDENCE VIENT ABONDANCE, where the ABONDANCE is sometimes rendered as simply ABONDA, or ABODENCE, or ABONDECE (sic)...

[frank]

Like a sign painter who goes right on lettering until he realizes he's out of space...

 

[frank]

Nuremberg copies? Yeah, the die breaks and the less-than-perfect engraving kinda give it away.

 

[frank]

[frank]

This one looks like someone was perhaps in a race to finish the engraving before the light gave out?

 

 

[constanius]

Wow, some pretty wild examples love your comments though.

 

I also cannot find VINCERE used on a French jeton.

[Ian]

Here is a rather special jeton

 

PIETATE ET IVSTITIA

AVT VINCI • VOS (AVT) Mori

 

 

 

 

This example was manufactured by Hans Krauwinckel between1588/9 (Henry III type- Citizen and Soldier reverse).

 

The type prior to this had Justice, Mars, and Piety on the reverse, supposedly representing the three estates of the realm namely Justice, the Church (Piety), and the Nobility (Mars). The obverse had two columns surmounted by a crown with an `H` inbetween. The Charles IX variety had a double C between the pillars obverse. (Mitchiner cites `Barnard 1917 pl 9 no 106' for that piece - knowing your excellent researching prowess, you might just be able to unearth it but i'll have a look in CGB's jetons XX for it in any event )

 

added: sadly, nothing in jetons XX

Edited January 29, 2017 by Ian

[Ian]

Does anyone own a copy, and is it a worthwhile purchase?

I have a copy, and a copy of the earlier catalogue (1986).

 

They are great as `tasters' ....or `hooks'... providing insight as to the various subject areas and as to the depth of subject area.

 

They got me hooked.

 

CGB's catalogues (Jetons # I through to # XXII) are also excellent reference materials but the first 5 are now very difficult to get hold of in print form.

[constanius]

 

 

This example was manufactured by Hans Krauwinckel between1588/9 (Henry III type- Citizen and Soldier reverse).

 

The type prior to this had Justice, Mars, and Piety on the reverse, supposedly representing the three estates of the realm namely Justice, the Church (Piety), and the Nobility (Mars). The obverse had two columns surmounted by a crown with an `H` inbetween. The Charles IX variety had a double C between the pillars obverse. (Mitchiner cites `Barnard 1917 pl 9 no 106' for that piece - knowing your excellent researching prowess, you might just be able to unearth it but i'll have a look in CGB's jetons XX for it in any event )

 

added: sadly, nothing in jetons XX

 

 

Thanks Ian, so mine is not actually listed in Mitchiner?

 

I have Barnard and you can download it here https://www.scribd.com/document/69035557/The-casting-counter-and-the-counting-board-a-chapter-in-the-history-of-numismatics-and-early-arithmetic-by-Francis-Pierrepont-Barnard

 

 

 

Deuxième tome du catalogue des jetons d’Ancien Régime conservés au département des Monnaies, Médailles; Thierry Sarmant & François-Ploton Nicollet, 2014: Éditions de la Bibliothèque nationale de France.

List this as, Charles IX, Chambre des comptes(though it could have easily been made later, or issued under Henri III)

Whenever my example was made the "PIETATE......" was Charles IX's motto and the quote "AVT VINCI......) was attributed to him, though both were used after his death.

What is apparent that it is in fact 2 Helmeted soldiers with lances, hence I think Mitchiner is a bit off in his attribution, or type, in regard to "citizen" The same hand(H.K.) would likely have been responsible for both the jetons then?

Barnard(in regard to a later jeton, I believe it to be F. 11811, Mars greets a warrior) speculates that the cock indicates the King and the wolf the duke of Orleans, and he states H.K. copied the obverse from a 1566 jeton albeit with alterations .

The soldiers on the jetons signed HK all seem to have a spear,straight shaft which could be thrown, the unsigned all seem to have the soldiers holding a lance, shaft having a hand grip which offers protection, but useless for throwing.

[Ian]

There are numerous variants of the `Pietate et Iustitia' jetons, struck since 1561. It is the shield obverse that Mitchiner attributes to the issues made under HK.

 

I agree that the description `Citizen and Soldier' seems a bit odd when looking at that particular jeton.

Mitchiner is disappointing for `detail', even though his tome on the medieval period is quite hefty. There is no jeton described in that particular tome that is a match to the one in the image. In addition, there is only one jeton listed in that tome with the reverse legend (Aut Vinci etc) but it doesn't remotely fit the bill.

 

Mitchiner does however describe a jeton which does have the two soldiers and references Neuman 32206: Feuardent 2274-75

 

rev: on left, armed soldier holding spear, gallic cock by feet: on right, similar soldier, hound by feet. They both hold between them a plant tipped by a lis: above all a small shield bearing three lis.

 

Thats as close as i can get....but the reverse legend for the one and only one mentioned bears the legend `Gallia Fortit'. The obverse names the Registrar for the Court des Monnoies.

[constanius]

Thanks again Ian for all your help this is F.2274 and is signed C 4(gallows) K for Chilianus Kochuus. The dog & cock have switched sides as have the stance of the soldiers. Is it possible that Chilianus Kochuus was responsible for all three jetons pictured in this topic?

 

 

 

This one is by H.K.

 

[Ian]

Ah.........THAT is a very good question.....not so sure that anyone has a definitive answer though.. Apologies in advance for my musings below:

 

First, to give a little `lineage' to this:

 

Damianus Krauwinkel was noted as a `master' rechenpfennigmacher in 1543. His passing was recorded in November 1581

 

Hans Krauwinkel I (the first) was a brother of Damianus. He became a `master' in 1562 and died in 1586

 

Hans Krauwinkel II (the second) was a son of Damianus. he became a `master' in 1586 and died in 1635

 

Egidius Krauwinkel was also a son of Damianus. he became a `master' in 1570 and died in 1613.

 

In June 1583 Egidius was recorded as striking rechenpfennigs bearing a crowned French shield. After his brother HK II

was appointed `master' in 1586, some jetons were struck bearing the signatures of both Egidius and HK. It could well be concluded that HK II also made use of dies produced by Egidius for his own issues (?).

 

Kilian Koch is not cited anywhere until an entry in the Book of the Dead, dated12th June 1599, which noted the passing of his wife `Clara' and made mention of him as being a rechenpfennigmacher. Jetons attributed to him span 1587 -1594. As we know, he used the signature `CK' ......excepting those times when he clearly didn't .

 

Now add into the mix a certain Conrad Koch, recorded in the Book of the Dead on 3rd July 1617 as `Spengler und Rechenpfennigmacher'. I have no idea as to whether KK was his son, or a cousin or a contemporary. However, jetons bearing the simple signature `CK' could possibly have been struck by either maker (?)

 

The Schultzes (Hans I and his son Hans II) also produced jetons bearing a crowned French shield from their workshop in the early 1580's, but the design is slightly different to the one on the jeton in question (no collar). These were struck with both `Pietate et Iustitia' legend AND `Pietat et Iustitia'.......

 

All of the foregoing could in theory have had `input' to the making of the pieces in question

 

Mitchiner attributes the `Pietate' legend with the shield obverse and the two `figures' reverse to HK II and in 1588/9..... but there is no listing of the jeton with the reverse style / legend.

 

If we could get an attribution for the two soldiers reverse we could probably gain more certainty as to the actual manufacturer.

 

Hans Krauwinkel II and Kilian Koch both used the services of the Maler firm as engravers for their dies, so there are similarities to themes for some of their issues of the late 1580's. Both were involved with Franco- allegorical style jeton making

 

Next, lets look at the Actual `french' jetons of the period that have relevance:

 

Under Charles IX : `Pietate et Iustitia' (shield of France obverse).

 

1562 (Conseil du Roi) : two females

1563 (Chambre des Comptes) :two columns

1564 (Conseil du Roi) : King David

1564 (Chambre des Comptes) : `CC' / branches

1565 (Chambre des Comptes) : `CC' / cornucopia

1567 (Ville de Paris): Shield and columns

1568 (Chambre des Comptes) : Shield and columns

 

1574 dated (No department cited): `aut vinci aut mori' legend, but `horseman' depicted

 

There are seven other types of regal jeton struck (general issues) with the Pietate legend and shield of france obverse but none with the `warriors'.

 

Under Henry III : `Pietate et Iustitia' (shield of France obverse)

 

1574 dated (No department cited) : `aut vinci vos aut mori ' legend, but `horseman' depicted. The same reverse was also used that year with the Obverse legend Henricus III DG Fran et Pol Rex. That jeton was also dated.

 

The regal jetons all appear to have been dated

 

Not conclusive by a long shot, but it looks to me that a rechenpfennigmacher (probably either HK II or Killian Koch) got pretty good service from the the Malers for the engraving work done on the first jeton.

 

Now i am compelled to dig out my own early jetons to see if I have any of the types in question.

[constanius]

Nice background

 

On the other 2 jetons the Venus(female) sign & the Mars(male) sign are not mentioned, further the Venus sign has 2 projections, mirroring the framing of the 3 fleur de lis. Just further food for thought

 

Great fun.