HELP WITH A CHAMPNEY MEDAL.

[constanius]

 

Copper 39mm by Champney.

 

I noticed a post which mentioned the american George Champney in regard to a russian/italian mule LINK and wondered if any of you guys that collect russian coins had any more info about Champney and/or this medal. Who is the on the obverse? is it Peter the Great? Why has St. George & the Dragon been replaced by a wyvern(symbol of Kazan)) on the Russian coat of arms?

 

Any help welcomed, thanks.

[grivna1726]

 

Copper 39mm by Champney.

 

I noticed a post which mentioned the american George Champney in regard to a russian/italian mule LINK and wondered if any of you guys that collect russian coins had any more info about Champney and/or this medal. Who is the on the obverse? is it Peter the Great? Why has St. George & the Dragon been replaced by a wyvern(symbol of Kazan)) on the Russian coat of arms?

 

Any help welcomed, thanks.

Very interesting. First one I can recall seeing.

 

I don't know who is on the portrait, but it doesn't look anything like Peter I to me. If anything it look more like an ancient Roman figure. The wyvern on the Russian eagle is just weird.

 

The are some pattern coins for Russia made outside the country that have inscriptions backwards, the date reversed or a German-looking eagle in place of the Russian eagle. I believe this was done to show to get contracts for coinage from Russia by foreign mints and to avoid any possible suspicion of counterfeiting, but that would have little application to the case of making a medal.

 

It also occurs to me that placing the wyvern (representing a constitient and secondary state within the Empire) on the eagle's breast, rather than the arms of Muscovy which would normally occupy that position, might suggest a satirical intent likely to offend official Russian sensibilities.

[alexbq2]

It also occurs to me that placing the wyvern (representing a constitient and secondary state within the Empire) on the eagle's breast, rather than the arms of Muscovy which would normally occupy that position, might suggest a satirical intent likely to offend official Russian sensibilities.

 

Wouldn't it suggest something of a provincial autonomy (or semi-autonomy). On Finland's coinage when it was a Russian province the regional coinage had the Finish lion on the Imperial eagle's chest, on polish regional coinage it was the Polish eagle.

 

The eagle looks like that on copper coins of the Ekaterinburg mint of 1860's. Don't know if that dates the medal.

[grivna1726]

Wouldn't it suggest something of a provincial autonomy (or semi-autonomy). On Finland's coinage when it was a Russian province the regional coinage had the Finish lion on the Imperial eagle's chest, on polish regional coinage it was the Polish eagle.

You might be right.

 

Poland (at least until 1831) and Finland were semi-autonomous. Was that also true of Kazan?

 

The eagle looks like that on copper coins of the Ekaterinburg mint of 1860's. Don't know if that dates the medal.

It does very much look like that eagle and I don't think it's just a coincidence. I'm guessing 1860s or later.

[constanius]

It does very much look like that eagle and I don't think it's just a coincidence. I'm guessing 1860s or later.

 

The Silver Jeton dated 1863 was minted in 1876 in the SPB Mint so the dating corresponds well with your estimate and of course Champney was there. So I guess I would be safe with 1860's to 1870's.

 

I assumed that though the figure was in a classical roman pose that it would be a russian tsar but I now know it is the god apollo

[alexbq2]

If we’re talking 1860’s or 70’s, the emperor was Alexander II. That’s not him, not enough facial hair. In fact facial hair was much in fashion, so I would not guess that this depicts any specific person. If this medal has some meaning, I would guess it would indeed be regional, specific to Kazan. Was Apollo a patron of the arts? Perhaps this is then some sort of an award medal, for some artistic event in Kazan?

[constanius]

Coat of arms of Kazan Governorate (1730)

Zilant is a legendary creature, something between a dragon and a wyvern. Since 1730, it has been the official symbol of Kazan. This winged snake is a part of Tatar and Russian folklore and is mentioned in legends about the foundation of Kazan

[constanius]

If this medal has some meaning, I would guess it would indeed be regional, specific to Kazan. Was Apollo a patron of the arts? Perhaps this is then some sort of an award medal, for some artistic event in Kazan?

 

Apollo has been variously recognized as a god of light and the sun; truth and prophecy; archery; medicine and healing; music, poetry, and the arts; and more, so yes it is possibly an award medal but the lack of any date or inscription is unusual.

 

Perhaps it is just another mule by Champney, using his own design of Apollo with the Kazan Governorate coat of arms copied from an existing russian medal to show off his technique of reproducing dies from an existing medal or coin.

 

So a Champney mule of Apollo and Kazan Governorate coat of arms 1860's to 1870's produced while he was in Russia might be close.

[STEVE MOULDING]

JRNS18 (The Champney Trial Strikes) & JRNS39 (George Champney II) give some biographical info on Champney as well as his efforts with various mints. The articles do talk about the Russian/Italian coin mules, but I don't think they talk about a medal. It does seem likely that this is another mule exercise to demonstrate his process rather than being somehow connected with or awarded in Kazan.

[alexbq2]

JRNS18 (The Champney Trial Strikes) & JRNS39 (George Champney II) give some biographical info on Champney as well as his efforts with various mints. The articles do talk about the Russian/Italian coin mules, but I don't think they talk about a medal. It does seem likely that this is another mule exercise to demonstrate his process rather than being somehow connected with or awarded in Kazan.

 

I do not know much about Champney. Based on the previous discussion he was an engineer who patented some innovative die creation process. So a technical person. So the question is - did he also have an aptitude for the arts? Was he able to cut (and not copy) his own die design as the signature suggests?

 

At the same time Champney is not an uncommon name, this one could be a completely different person.

[constanius]

I do not know much about Champney. Based on the previous discussion he was an engineer who patented some innovative die creation process. So a technical person. So the question is - did he also have an aptitude for the arts? Was he able to cut (and not copy) his own die design as the signature suggests?

 

At the same time Champney is not an uncommon name, this one could be a completely different person.

 

That is the problem, not much is known about George Champney of Boston. There is no listing in Forrer's Biographical Dictionary of any Champney. Can find no listing of any other medal by Champney.

 

The only things that point in his favour as the medalist is;

the signature

he obviously was interested in the process of coin reproduction

he was in Russia and in a least one mint there, and the reverse is russian

and I can find no reference to any other Champney with a numismatic connection

 

So applying Occam's razor.......

[alexbq2]

Thirty five years ago the idea struck Mr Champney that at a suitable velocity a cast iron medal or even a gold or silver coin could be driven bodily into a block of hot steel so as to produce a perfect die in which its own shape could be duplicated by use of the coining press Experiments convinced him of the truth of his theory He went to Europe with this invention and remained abroad for ten or twelve years in close connection for a part of the time with the Russian Mint where he made dies which gage from 30 to 70,000 impressions as against 6,200 impressions for the life of any die there made by the ordinary methods for the same piece and was decorated by the Emperor with the order of Stanislaus for his invention After these years in Europe Mr Champney returned to America and proceeded to perfect his methods so as to make them applicable to dies of all sizes his previous work had been for coining purposes and medals only He started to work in Bridgeport where he made many dies for leading firms of silversmiths and metal workers all over the United States

 

 

http://books.google.com/books?id=rSlDAAAAI...;q=&f=false

[alexbq2]

From the same book:

"As might be guessed the very smallest and faintest marks on the original were reproduced with absolute fidelity in the Champney dies and a die struck from a $5 gold piece with Champney in sunk letters was absolutely faultless in every detail under the microscope and the die of the Head of Rubens had a perfect polish in every detail"

[constanius]

Thanks Alexbq2 for the info and all your other help, most appreciated. I tried the link but cannot find the book on google, just a snippet view.

 

EDITED: LINK this worked.

"$5 gold piece with Champney in sunk letters" so he did apply his name to that coin.

[one-kuna]

As this piece was made in US, it was his nostalgia about being in russia for so long,

and it is reflected in type of russian eagle being used for coinage in Russia at that time,

and God Apollo, he memorized saw it in the State Hermitage, St. Petersburg;

then I looked through the book (! highly recommended) "The State Coat of Arms of Russia - 500 years"

and came up to another conclusion that russian eagle with Kazan arm can be a coat of arm

of Their Imperial Highnesses Grand Duke/s from Kazan, as ther are many others presented in this book,

and very similar to design on a piece discussed over here

[constanius]

I looked through the book (! highly recommended) "The State Coat of Arms of Russia - 500 years"

and came up to another conclusion that russian eagle with Kazan arm can be a coat of arm

of Their Imperial Highnesses Grand Duke/s from Kazan

 

Thanks for the info, most helpful. Makes sense, that the Imperial Eagle with the Crest of Kazan upon it would be for the Grand Dukes of Kazan. Glad you had the book for a reference. All references I could find for the Coat of arms of Kazan or the Kazan Governorate none showed or mentioned it being used with the Russian Eagle.

[one-kuna]

Thanks for the info, most helpful. Makes sense, that the Imperial Eagle with the Crest of Kazan upon it would be for the Grand Dukes of Kazan. Glad you had the book for a reference. All references I could find for the Coat of arms of Kazan or the Kazan Governorate none showed or mentioned it being used with the Russian Eagle.

 

I found one for you in ty the State Hermitage on-line shop:

 

http://shop.hermitagemuseum.org/webapp/wcs...t=20&type=1

[constanius]

I found one for you in ty the State Hermitage on-line shop:

 

http://shop.hermitagemuseum.org/webapp/wcs...t=20&type=1

 

Thanks

[IgorS]

I spoke to M. Diakov (author of corpus on Russian Imperial Medals) about this medal and he pointed me to a few medals pictured in his catalog that served as input into the piece created by Champney. The Apollo is from school award medal by Nikonov and the eagle is from the Kazan exhibition medal. I will post the images of those medals in the evening. Looks like Champney enjoyed creating dies directly from medals/coins and muling them together

[constanius]

I spoke to M. Diakov (author of corpus on Russian Imperial Medals) about this medal and he pointed me to a few medals pictured in his catalog that served as input into the piece created by Champney. The Apollo is from school award medal by Nikonov and the eagle is from the Kazan exhibition medal. I will post the images of those medals in the evening. Looks like Champney enjoyed creating dies directly from medals/coins and muling them together

Great news, Thanks If there is any text to go with the pictures I would be thrilled to see it also. I will have to look up Nikonov in Forrers to see if he is listed there. Not listed.

 

Strange that he would add his name to someone else's work, but he was known to have done that to the $5 gold piece

 

So at least I now know for sure that is is a mule by George Champney and can I assume pretty rare?

[IgorS]

Here is Nikonov's medal:

 

 

It is Diakov 754.3. 1868 Imperial SPB Academy of Arts. Two award medals combined into one - Rzhevskaya award and Demidov award. 38 mm. by V. Nikonov. Rarity in copper R1.

 

Possible source of the reverse:

 

 

I am guessing your medal is very rare.

[one-kuna]

Copper 39mm by Champney.

I noticed a post which mentioned the american George Champney in regard to a russian/italian mule and wondered if any of you guys that collect russian coins had any more info about Champney and/or this medal. Who is the on the obverse? is it Peter the Great? Why has St. George & the Dragon been replaced by a wyvern(symbol of Kazan)) on the Russian coat of arms?

Any help welcomed, thanks.

 

we could have probably started from this but better later than never as russian say:

 

russian eagle depicted on russian coins has on its two wings the 6 territory coat of arms where one is for KAZAN since 1832 !!

[bobh]

we could have probably started from this but better later than never as russian say:

From this site (http://www.answers.com/topic/better-late-than-never):

 

Cf. [Dionysius of halicarnassus Roman Antiquities ix. 9] κρɛῖṯṯον γάρ ἐσṯίν ὀψεἄρϰασθαί ṯὰ δέονṯα ρράṯṯɛίν ἢ μηδέροṯɛ, it is better to start doing what one has to late than not at all; [Livy Hist. iv. ii.] potius sero quam nunquam.

 

[one-kuna]

one from dozens Grand Duke Romanov, possible from Kazan,

was visiting Boston and Champney dedicated this medal/jeton to Him/Her, taken a design from russian medallist

[constanius]

one from dozens Grand Duke Romanov, possible from Kazan,

was visiting Boston and Champney dedicated this medal/jeton to Him/Her, taken a design from russian medallist

 

I do not think in was produced in the USA, most likely struck whilst Champney was in Russia(we can certainly place him there in 1876) where both of the medals he used to create this mule would be readily available, not so at hand in the USA.