one-kuna Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 With the estimate $30000 this unknown in gold up to today medal of the grand duke Georgii Mikhailovich to the VISITOR was sold for $40000 on recent New York sale auction XXI, lot 1327. Some prospective buyers who really wanted such medals did not buy it due to medal provenance and its condition. However some folks stated that it was genuine. Some top experts in russian numismatics like Kopylov, Smirnov, Spasskij, etc., should have known the fact of existence of gold medal...but it was never published. The silver medals were given to the persons who visited and observed the grand duke collection of russian coins and medals, and these silver medals are known being sold at auctions from 1910 up to 2008, but gold? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 With the estimate $30000 this unknown in gold up to today medal of the grand duke Georgii Mikhailovich to the VISITOR was sold for $40000 on recent New York sale auction XXI, lot 1327. Some prospective buyers who really wanted such medals did not buy it due to medal provenance and its condition. However some folks stated that it was genuine. Some top experts in russian numismatics like Kopylov, Smirnov, Spasskij, etc., should have known the fact of existence of gold medal...but it was never published. The silver medals were given to the persons who visited and observed the grand duke collection of russian coins and medals, and these silver medals are known being sold at auctions from 1910 up to 2008, but gold? The striking of medals from the Grand Duke’s dies was a private matter and I see no problem with the existence of one or more gold medals. It is also likely that trial strikes existed (or still do) in lead and tin. The Grand Duke was, after all, a collector and would have had specimens in various metals struck for his personal holdings. The Grand Duke’s home in St. Petersburg was looted by mobs when the Bolsheviks seized power and many of his possessions, such as books and papers, were simply thrown into the street. It takes little imagination to think that his stock of medals was stolen at that time. RWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grivna1726 Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 The striking of medals from the Grand Duke’s dies was a private matter and I see no problemwith the existence of one or more gold medals. It is also likely that trial strikes existed (or still do) in lead and tin. The Grand Duke was, after all, a collector and would have had specimens in various metals struck for his personal holdings. The Grand Duke’s home in St. Petersburg was looted by mobs when the Bolsheviks seized power and many of his possessions, such as books and papers, were simply thrown into the street. It takes little imagination to think that his stock of medals was stolen at that time. RWJ There is merit in your comments and previously unknown examples of rarities do surface occasionally, but it seems reasonable to question how it has remained completely unknown until now and where it has been all these years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 The striking of medals from the Grand Duke’s dies was a private matter and I see no problemwith the existence of one or more gold medals. It is also likely that trial strikes existed (or still do) in lead and tin. The Grand Duke was, after all, a collector and would have had specimens in various metals struck for his personal holdings. The Grand Duke’s home in St. Petersburg was looted by mobs when the Bolsheviks seized power and many of his possessions, such as books and papers, were simply thrown into the street. It takes little imagination to think that his stock of medals was stolen at that time. RWJ how would you explain a fact that the all relief elements like horseman and such are in excellent condition but fields are left unpolished...gold medal dated 1888... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 The striking of medals from the Grand Duke’s dies was a private matter and I see no problemwith the existence of one or more gold medals. It is also likely that trial strikes existed (or still do) in lead and tin. The Grand Duke was, after all, a collector and would have had specimens in various metals struck for his personal holdings. The Grand Duke’s home in St. Petersburg was looted by mobs when the Bolsheviks seized power and many of his possessions, such as books and papers, were simply thrown into the street. It takes little imagination to think that his stock of medals was stolen at that time. RWJ yes, dies were in grand duke possession, but please, if this gold medal was so valuable to him (as per auction consignor), why he did not pack it with its dies (or at list his numismatic comissioner Mokhrovskyi) with the rest of coins and medals, even he was being sent to the war to observe the russian army (1914)... For example, Giel's jetons were advertised and sold in different variants in Staraya Moneta: aluminum, green copper, yellow copper, dark copper, gold-like, silver-like, etc,, but Visitor medal in silver only... Also there was a comprehensive article on grand duke Visitor medal issue and its dies in Staraya Moneta, moreover, a silver medal was offered for sale at 15 rubles through Staraya Moneta (1910, #7), since that time neither Kopylov over 40 numismatic auctions before 1918 or any other numismatic dealers, collectors and periodics /literature have never mentioned on such gold piece...(neither lead and tin and others)... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 how would you explain a fact that the all relief elements like horseman and such are in excellent condition but fields are left unpolished...gold medal dated 1888... The fact that different finishes exist for a coin or medal depends upon what was ordered at the time the piece was made. The Paris Mint, for example, made proof coins in a variety of finishes. The vignettes and fields are often treated in a different manner. Today we expect matte finishes for the vignettes and brilliant for the fields but this is not always the case as the process is sometimes reversed, as on recent U.S. bullion pieces. RWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 yes, dies were in grand duke possession, but please, if this gold medal was so valuable to him (as per auction consignor), why he did not pack it with its dies (or at list his numismatic comissioner Mokhrovskyi) with the rest of coins and medals, even he was being sent to the war to observe the russian army (1914)... For example, Giel's jetons were advertised and sold in different variants in Staraya Moneta: aluminum, green copper, yellow copper, dark copper, gold-like, silver-like, etc,, but Visitor medal in silver only... Also there was a comprehensive article on grand duke Visitor medal issue and its dies in Staraya Moneta, moreover, a silver medal was offered for sale at 15 rubles through Staraya Moneta (1910, #7), since that time neither Kopylov over 40 numismatic auctions before 1918 or any other numismatic dealers, collectors and periodics /literature have never mentioned on such gold piece...(neither lead and tin and others)... I think that you do not understand the meaning of the Staraya Moneta work. Kopylov, as I understand the matter, was offering an older medal for sale in connection with the article. There was no reason to mention a gold medal or trial strikes. The Giel medals, on the other hand, were a public offering, an entirely different matter. The medal dies would have been kept at the Mint subject to orders from the Grand Duke. RWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 The fact that different finishes exist for a coin or medal depends uponwhat was ordered at the time the piece was made. The Paris Mint, for example, made proof coins in a variety of finishes. The vignettes and fields are often treated in a different manner. Today we expect matte finishes for the vignettes and brilliant for the fields but this is not always the case as the process is sometimes reversed, as on recent U.S. bullion pieces. RWJ according above version is that a piece was ordered by grand duke sometime ago about 1888 at Vienna mint and since that time (auctioning now as apparently unique) never appeared to a public and medal fields was left unpolished since and grand duke never presented such gold medal to the Alexander III, but for him gave him a jeton, not a medal with unpolished fields! does anyone can demonstrate an example of such valuable gold piece among russian medals with same finish at that time? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 does anyone can demonstrate an example of such valuable gold piece among russian medals with same finish at that time? I fail to see the importance of a different finish being ordered by the Grand Duke. Experimental finishes are done all the time by medallists and mints and have been for a long time. The fact that the piece was not published until now is irrelevant. RWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 I think that you do not understand the meaning of the Staraya Moneta work. Kopylov,as I understand the matter, was offering an older medal for sale in connection with the article. There was no reason to mention a gold medal or trial strikes. The Giel medals, on the other hand, were a public offering, an entirely different matter. The medal dies would have been kept at the Mint subject to orders from the Grand Duke. RWJ article was published in number 4 an 5, sale's ad in number 7 and has no direct connections with its article... what I do understand is that above imaginations on possible existence of a gold piece are imaginations only... to be continued... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 article was published in number 4 an 5, sale's ad in number 7 and has no direct connections with its article...what I do understand is that above imaginations on possible existence of a gold piece are imaginations only... to be continued... When an item is offered for sale and there was a recent article on the subject, then there is a direct connection. RWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 according above version is that a piece was ordered by grand duke sometime ago about 1888 at Vienna mint and since that time (auctioning now as apparently unique) never appeared to a public and medal fields was left unpolished since and grand duke never presented such gold medal to the Alexander III, but for him gave him a jeton, not a medal with unpolished fields! does anyone can demonstrate an example of such valuable gold piece among russian medals with same finish at that time? so far I do not see any creditible evidences from you that a medal is genuie, just general review and possible imagination... my real facts are not discussed straight... for example, what could you say about the historical fact that a jeton was given to Alexander III when he visited and observed grand duke collection, didn't he deserve to get a gold medal? Alexander III Romanov was given a little tiny jeton only?...that is it?...who can believe in that?...the real fact (explanation) of that is that there was no medal in gold - that is a fact!... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 so far I do not see any creditible evidences from you that a medal is genuie, just general review and possible imagination...my real facts are not discussed straight... for example, what could you say about the historical fact that a jeton was given to Alexander III when he visited and observed grand duke collection, didn't he deserve to get a gold medal? Alexander III Romanov was given a little tiny jeton only?...that is it?...who can believe in that?...the real fact (explanation) of that is that there was no medal in gold - that is a fact!... You have it backwards. I do not have to prove it is genuine, you have to prove otherwise and you have not done so. Stating that Alexander III did or did not receive a gold medal is proof of nothing. The edge inscription is a good indication of being genuine. There is no doubt in my mind that the Grand Duke would have ordered a gold specimen for his own collection. The only way to state with certainty that no medal was struck in gold is to produce the original Mint records. In another posting you state that no lead or tin pieces have shown up. Lead pieces are always struck by mints to show the owner of the dies the current state of the die work. This is done so that necessary changes can be made to unhardened dies. The Grand Duke would have kept copies of the lead proofs, for example, yet they have not shown up. They may no longer exist but certainly did at one time. RWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 13, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 There is merit in your comments and previously unknown examples of rarities do surface occasionally, but it seems reasonable to question how it has remained completely unknown until now and where it has been all these years. that is right - completely unknown in all metals but silver... especially those cheap pieces in lead and tin (RWJ mentioned earlier), they should have been showed up somewhere for so many years, where are they... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
altyn Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 You have it backwards. I do not have to prove it is genuine, you have to prove otherwise and you have not done so. This is a very interesting point. Does "presumption of innocence" apply to coins/medals? Is a coin presumed innocent (genuine) until proven guilty (fake) or the other way around? I am intrigued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted January 13, 2009 Report Share Posted January 13, 2009 This is a very interesting point. Does "presumption of innocence" apply to coins/medals? Is a coin presumed innocent (genuine) until proven guilty (fake) or the other way around? I am intrigued. One-kuna posted his original message to the fakes forum without any evidence that the piece in question is bad. The presumption of genuineness from a reputable seller is assumed unless proven otherwise. I see nothing in the photograph of this piece that causes me to question it. RWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 One-kuna posted his original message to the fakes forum without any evidencethat the piece in question is bad. The presumption of genuineness from a reputable seller is assumed unless proven otherwise. I see nothing in the photograph of this piece that causes me to question it. RWJ i posted some known, credible facts from the russian numismatic history writen by Smirnov and Spasskiy, and bunch of others, which have never mentioned and confirmed existence of gold piece... some russian experts say that by looking at a picture only is not enough guarantee to confirm that it is genuine... and they are right... one of them immediately stated that this medal was recently made in Zelenograd, Russia, and another one noted that this medal would be made much better in Kiev... to be continued... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RW Julian Posted January 14, 2009 Report Share Posted January 14, 2009 i posted some known, credible facts from the russian numismatic history writen by Smirnov and Spasskiy, and bunch of others, which have never mentioned and confirmed existence of gold piece... some russian experts say that by looking at a picture only is not enough guarantee to confirm that it is genuine... and they are right... one of them immediately stated that this medal was recently made in Zelenograd, Russia, and another one noted that this medal would be made much better in Kiev... to be continued... The “fact” that a gold specimen is not mentioned in the literature means nothing. It is often the case that an unknown coin or medal will surface decades after being struck. In 1884 and 1885 United States Trade dollars were secretly struck at the Philadelphia Mint and did not become known to numismatists for nearly 30 years. There is no question whatsoever that lead strikes were made when the Grand Duke’s dies were first made. Such strikes are not mentioned in the literature yet certainly existed, a point which one-kuna does not wish to discuss. One-kuna then quotes a Russian “expert” as saying the piece was made in Zelenograd. One-kuna now must name his experts and their qualifications. Anonymous claims are not acceptable. One-kuna is of course right that a specimen cannot be determined to be genuine from a photograph. But he has produced no evidence of any kind that it is not not genuine. RWJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BKB Posted January 15, 2009 Report Share Posted January 15, 2009 If this medal appeared on ebay with that story, there would be no question that it is fake. What is the difference where it is being sold? After all, do you remember the description of lot 1004 from the January 2007 auction? Lots of questions with regard to description of lot 1077 from this auction. I do not think it matters much where such item is offered. Seller should be able to show that the item is authentic, not the other way around. It should not be your job, R.W. Julian, nor your job, Mr. Kuna. Long gone are the days when I did not question authenticity just because the item was offered at an auction. Too lucrative to sell Russian patterns and "uniques" to thoroughly check them nowdays. Hard to find an auction that never sold a russian fake. The medal, however, was not authenticated by any official authentication service, russian or US. Diakov publishes these medals in gold and copper. Would be interesting if it is the same gold medal. Would also be interesting to find out the source of information. From what I understand, the first known medal was made in 1887. Would it not be logical that the gold medal for GM would be made the year when the first medal was struck? Not like he needed to save his money for a year to buy gold... The fact that tin and led impressions never turned up does not prove that this medal is original. Only proves that something that existed, may never turn up. Moreover, those tin and led die trials never made their way into catalogs, or did they? I know the russian mint sold white metal medals to the poor, but those were not trials and, as far as I know, also were not catalogued. As far as gold medals go, normally those found their way into literature. But, we are talking about a private issue, so everything is possible. Got to say that you guys know about this medal way more than I do. As to my IMXO -- Fields do look very strange. Doubt that a special set of dies with a strange field surface would be made to strike one medal or two medals. After all, there was a perfectly good set made to strike silver medals. The condition of the medal makes it hard for die comparison. Sometimes the fakes are intentionally aged to hide the signs... But, being that I did not personally see the medal, I will not go either way on this argument. Sorry to add to the confusion, if I did, but I am trying to figure out what is going on myself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
one-kuna Posted January 14, 2010 Author Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 CONCLUSION: MODERN CAST COPY FROM GOLD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saor Alba Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 If the metal doesn't fit, you must acquit! Sorry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saor Alba Posted January 14, 2010 Report Share Posted January 14, 2010 Since cannot send PM until 6:11 in evening per forum, now I say above is reference to OJ Simpson trial. Joke only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest rnsdb Posted September 30, 2012 Report Share Posted September 30, 2012 Does anyone have an image of the Mikhailovitch gold vistors medal from the auction? The auction used to be on line but it's a dead link now. The reason I want an image is the medals database, metals.accdr, is available for download 10/1 at rnsdb.x10.mx/rnsdb and I'd like to lnclude this to go along with the silver one already in the database I have an image of the silver original. The Access medals database has a new function, also available in the coins.accdr, of being able to filter originals coded as having known forgeries and the forgeries themselves and displaying them on a full screen side by side with the comparison text which opines that it's a forgery. Please send image to rnsdb@yahoo.com If nobody has it, I'll have to buy the catalog. Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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