My favorite Russian coin |
|
Coins |
![]() |
Gallery Help Search Members Calendar OmniCoin BNB
|
![]() ![]() |
My favorite Russian coin |
Feb 3 2006, 03:24 AM
Post
#1
|
|
![]() сборник ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,643 Joined: 23-September 05 Member No.: 383 |
This is my most treasured Russian coin.
It is my other 1726 grivna, a genuine This coin should theoretically weigh in at ~164 grams. Mine is underweight at 153.7 grams. There were many problems with the production of the copper plates, with wide variances in weight. This is why there are some plates known with inspectors stamps on the reverse. The plate production stopped in early 1727 and the existing plates were recalled from circulation and melted. Genuine examples are seldom offered today, most are fakes. This one is real and has been in my collection for more than 20 years. There are some genuine novodels of the plates, but even they are seldom offered. Please forgive the poor quality of the photo. I am new to digital photography and the coin was photographed through glass (I have it framed on a black velvet background).
Attached File(s)
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2006, 03:35 AM
Post
#2
|
|
![]() Choose your title... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,591 Joined: 14-June 05 Member No.: 17 OmniCoin BanknoteBank |
Wow grivna, you most certainly never fail to impress me. What I am suprised is that there seems be an extra failed strike at the left side of the planchet and the uneven planchet, which is a normal product of Ekaterinburg mint.
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2006, 03:57 AM
Post
#3
|
|
![]() сборник ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,643 Joined: 23-September 05 Member No.: 383 |
QUOTE(gxseries @ Feb 2 2006, 11:30 PM) What I am suprised is that there seems be an extra failed strike at the left side of the planchet and the uneven planchet, which is a normal product of Ekaterinburg mint. [right][snapback]154226[/snapback][/right] The blanks for the plates were very crudely produced. Even with aid of imported expert Swedish help in plate production, there were many technical difficulties. The ghost stamp seems to be the result of the punches "bouncing" when the plates were struck (the grivny were struck as a unit with the 5 punches mounted into a square metal base which held them in position). GM has a plate with a similar ghosted image of the center stamp which Brekke reproduced in his book (see Brekke-42). Mine is Brekke-52, the variety with the plain eagle's breast (they are also known with a shield on the breast or the Empress's monogram). The plate money was a very shortlived issue, but one of the most interesting as well. |
|
|
|
Feb 3 2006, 04:52 AM
Post
#4
|
|
![]() Classic Sisu ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 3,763 Joined: 13-June 05 From: Finland Member No.: 6 OmniCoin |
VERY NICE! I have never actually seen any Russian plate money before. The Swedish stuff yes, but not Russian.
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2006, 11:18 AM
Post
#5
|
|
![]() сборник ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,643 Joined: 23-September 05 Member No.: 383 |
QUOTE(Sir Sisu @ Feb 3 2006, 12:47 AM) VERY NICE! I have never actually seen any Russian plate money before. The Swedish stuff yes, but not Russian. [right][snapback]154266[/snapback][/right] Russian plate money doesn't show up very often and when it does, it is almost always fake. A previously unknown polpoltina (quarter ruble) plate showed up at the New York International in the early 1980s. Naturally, its appearance caused quite a stir and it was initially greeted with some skepticism because it was about one third overweight. However, it was later confirmed genuine and ended up in Brekke's personal collection in 1984. Brekke also owned several original grivny plates (and a novodel), including an original 1726 grivna bearing the "ПР/ГА" plate money inspector stamp on the reverse (ПР=ПРИЕМЦИК=Inspector and ГА=Gavril Albychev). |
|
|
|
Feb 3 2006, 11:55 AM
Post
#6
|
|
|
Mary Queen of Scots Half Lion 1553 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,710 Joined: 14-June 05 From: Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach! Member No.: 38 |
I have only seen one piece of Russian plate money, it was in a museum in Khabarovsk, Russia.
I wonder if that imported Swedish help was voluntary, or some of the thousands of Swedish prisoners that still languished in captivity in Russia after the Great Northern War? |
|
|
|
Feb 3 2006, 02:50 PM
Post
#7
|
|
|
Member ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 15 Joined: 27-January 06 Member No.: 743 |
NICE TO SEE A REAL ONE .. I HAVE ONLY COPIES .. TWO 1 KOPEK, AND ONE EACH FIVE AND TEN KOPEK. ALSO THE ROUBLE.. THE EAGLES ON THE FAKES LOOK LIKE CHICKENS WITH THEIR NECKS WRUNG .. EASY TO SPOT ..
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2006, 02:59 PM
Post
#8
|
|
![]() Choose your title... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 5,591 Joined: 14-June 05 Member No.: 17 OmniCoin BanknoteBank |
QUOTE(grivna1726 @ Feb 3 2006, 09:13 PM) Russian plate money doesn't show up very often and when it does, it is almost always fake. A previously unknown polpoltina (quarter ruble) plate showed up at the New York International in the early 1980s. Naturally, its appearance caused quite a stir and it was initially greeted with some skepticism because it was about one third overweight. However, it was later confirmed genuine and ended up in Brekke's personal collection in 1984. Brekke also owned several original grivny plates (and a novodel), including an original 1726 grivna bearing the "ПР/ГА" plate money inspector stamp on the reverse (ПР=ПРИЕМЦИК=Inspector and ГА=Gavril Albychev). [right][snapback]154380[/snapback][/right] That is some fantastic news... |
|
|
|
Feb 3 2006, 03:04 PM
Post
#9
|
|
![]() Hey I'll collect those! ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 27,772 Joined: 13-June 05 From: Florida Member No.: 8 OmniCoin BanknoteBank |
Very interesting piece. I have only seen pictures of a few pieces of plate money. Never had the opportunity to see the real thing.
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2006, 03:16 PM
Post
#10
|
|
![]() Excelsior ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,341 Joined: 27-August 05 From: Twin Cities, MN Member No.: 332 |
Cool. Very interesting piece and history. The picture is fine as well.
|
|
|
|
Feb 3 2006, 09:37 PM
Post
#11
|
|
![]() сборник ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,643 Joined: 23-September 05 Member No.: 383 |
QUOTE(Укра @ Feb 3 2006, 07:50 AM) I have only seen one piece of Russian plate money, it was in a museum in Khabarovsk, Russia. I wonder if that imported Swedish help was voluntary, or some of the thousands of Swedish prisoners that still languished in captivity in Russia after the Great Northern War? [right][snapback]154381[/snapback][/right] I believe it was a Swede hired from one of the Swedish mints who had experience in making plate money there. I will have to check my references to confirm that my recollection is correct in that respect. The bulk of the Russian plate production was in the grivna denomination. These plates are small in comparison to the contemporary Swedish issues. Here is a picture which includes a dime (for scale for those unfamiliar with these coins).
Attached File(s)
|
|
|
|
Feb 4 2006, 08:20 AM
Post
#12
|
|
|
Choose your title... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 416 Joined: 14-June 05 Member No.: 71 |
A wonderful "coin"? I didn't even know there was plate money from Russia.
|
|
|
|
Feb 4 2006, 06:22 PM
Post
#13
|
|
|
Mary Queen of Scots Half Lion 1553 ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 7,710 Joined: 14-June 05 From: Tir nam beann, nan gleann, s'nan gaisgeach! Member No.: 38 |
QUOTE(grivna1726 @ Feb 3 2006, 04:32 PM) I believe it was a Swede hired from one of the Swedish mints who had experience in making plate money there. I will have to check my references to confirm that my recollection is correct in that respect. The bulk of the Russian plate production was in the grivna denomination. These plates are small in comparison to the contemporary Swedish issues. Here is a picture which includes a dime (for scale for those unfamiliar with these coins). [right][snapback]154563[/snapback][/right] I would not be surprised that they hired from someone from Sweden, this was something particularly fascinating during the reign of Petr I, was that he would hire anybody from wherever if they were qualified for the job and were loyal. On this vain his navy was created by a Scotsman, and some of the influences for reformation came from a purported visit to the then mintmaster at the Tower of London, Sir Isaac Newton during Petr I's visit in 1698. Petr I's reign also saw the decimalisation of the Russian currency, a first in the world. I have a couple of examples of Swedish plate money on my site linked below, I would like to find more but they got a lot pricier after I purchased these. |
|
|
|
Feb 6 2006, 12:52 AM
Post
#14
|
|
![]() сборник ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 1,643 Joined: 23-September 05 Member No.: 383 |
In response to your comment about the Swedish master help, here is what the late Ran Zander had to say:
"The Swedish master mechanic Deichmann was engaged as a technological chief to oversee and guide the setting up of the plate works at Ekaterinburg. He had the examples of the long-established procedure at Sweden's principal copper mint at Avesta as well as a more modern method developed just recently at Stockholm. The Moscow mint provided workmen, skilled however at coining round money and not plates. Two large sheds were thrown together to accomodate the new works. Deichmann and the Moscow team carried with them an array of gear, much of it with a view to enabling them to manufacture on site the machinery needed to produce the plates...Central to the operation were heavy shearing machines and great tilt-hammers, the largest of 21 poods power, able to impress adequately even the five-element design of a plate grivna in a single blow....Though Deichmann had a great measure of authority in his sphere, he was dealing with craftsmen proud of their skill and resourcefulness and inevitably touchy about foreign supervision if too tightly exercised. Out of this relationship there developed various modifications so that the Russian plate pieces were not simply replicas of the Swedish..." While Zander did not definitely state that the Swedish master was not a prisoner, the circumstances as described suggest that he was imported (and presumably very well paid) for his expertise as a consultant and project supervisor. Other than the mention of Deichmann as described above, I know nothing of this man. Given your interest in the Swedish plates, is it possible that you might be able to shed further light on the matter? Congratulations on your Swedish plates as shown on your website. One day I hope to acquire a small contemporary Swedish plate as a companion piece for my grivna. The tilt-hammers mentioned are described as being up to "21 poods power". The pood is a weight equal to about 36 pounds. So that would work out to about 756 pounds power. |
|
|
|
Feb 6 2006, 01:33 AM
Post
#15
|
|
![]() Excelsior ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Group: Members Posts: 2,341 Joined: 27-August 05 From: Twin Cities, MN Member No.: 332 |
QUOTE(Укра @ Feb 4 2006, 01:17 PM) I would not be surprised that they hired from someone from Sweden, this was something particularly fascinating during the reign of Petr I, was that he would hire anybody from wherever if they were qualified for the job and were loyal. On this vain his navy was created by a Scotsman, and some of the influences for reformation came from a purported visit to the then mintmaster at the Tower of London, Sir Isaac Newton during Petr I's visit in 1698. Petr I's reign also saw the decimalisation of the Russian currency, a first in the world. [right][snapback]154799[/snapback][/right] I remember from some biographies I read about Peter the Great that he was desperately trying to modernize Russia and did this by bringing in skilled people frlom elsewhere in Europe. The Orthodox church and the boyers (nobles I think) opposed this. One story related how Peter forcibly had all the long beards cut off of the nobility. |
|
|
|
Feb 6 2006, 02:19 AM
|